I agree baseless impeachments are bad for democracy. But they're a well-established feature of the system, they are explicitly political trials, and they've been used before for reasons I thought were silly (Bill Clinton deserved censure for an extremely inappropriate relationship with a young staffer - he probably did not need to be impeached for lying about a blow job). I just don't think yet another misuse of the impeachment process is as bad as directly contradicting the results of an election without evidence, then taking concrete steps to overturn the result by pressuring election officials and your own VP.CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:03 pmI still disagree here, but I don't suppose I'll be convincing you otherwise.
I actually don't know what more Trump could have done. He didn't have the military on his side. He didn't have the facts on his side. He didn't have the law on his side. All he had at his disposal was a desperate attempt to intimidate others (election officials, his VP) into going along with his lie about the result. It wasn't likely to work, but it was genuinely aimed at overturning the result of an election he provably lost.CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:03 pmSure, his speech has power. I'm not saying it doesn't. But what I am saying is that he could've done more than just speech. If he really wanted to, he could've taken actions that would have much greater effect, even if still failing, such as the Democrats did in response to 2016.
He said some stupid stuff. But if he wanted to destroy democracy, he would've done more than saying stupid stuff.
It's worth thinking through what would have happened if Pence had taken Trump's orders. I assume Biden would have still become president, but how and after what other acrimony? It would have been the worst constitutional crisis in the US in at least a century.
To be clear I don't think Trump has a well-thought-out plan aimed at ending US democracy. Instead, I think he has no scruples at all and a disordered *need* to win, so he will bully or ignore any fact, person, or institution who doesn't support that personal mission. Democratic norms just get caught in the crossfire, to deleterious effect. This goes beyond the normal slimy ambition of other US Presidents and presidential candidates who, despite their faults, concede when defeated and don't endlessly repeat rigged election conspiracies that the courts have already found to be false.
This is where I'm not so sure. The outlandish idea that Trump = Hitler on day one of his second term is obviously wrong. But this feels like an historic and important election. At a minimum, if the US re-elects a cry baby election denier, it seems very likely to me that this tactic will become much more common on both sides.CaptainFritz28 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:03 pmAnd to a certain extent I agree. I really don't like either party, especially not while Trump is still with the Republicans, and I think the decline that our democracy has experienced will continue unless something changes. But I don't think voting for Biden (or Trump) will change it, or slow it down, and I don't think voting for Trump will speed it up.
To save our nation, there has to be a change in its society as well as its politics. As long as the average American continues to decline, so will our democracy.
This election won't decide the fate of our republic. It's going to take a lot more.