wD Mafia Master Post

[Tom Bombadil]

I say 2 games only because it spilled over into the second game.

You can't spend several paragraphs saying how you profusely apologized for your sexist comment and in the same breath say that your comment wasn't sexist.

There is no "gray area" that you speak of. Your use of bitch was sexist, Durga's use was not. It was used in two completely different contexts.

[worcej]

it enraged me to see someone step so far over the line and be met with equivocation between that step and her reaction to it by the GM and by a number of the players.

I think this is a really important point, and something that bothered me with the way we handled the situation. I'm not saying that every reaction to the initial offense was warranted, but the overall response of our community to a prejudiced comment and the aftermath was "both sides need to let it go and move on." This is unacceptable, honestly. Even if the situation deteriorates to both sides making personal attacks, the original offense was the catalyst, and the response was reactionary - and I honestly believe it was reactionary largely because of the general consensus to let the original offense slide.

And it was a prejudiced comment. I know worcej reacted very strongly to Durga calling him a misogynist, and I understand why. It's a pretty loaded word and it implies a lot of things that I'm sure are not applicable to worcej. But that comment in that context was misogynistic, and treating the label of "misogynist" as being just as offensive as a gendered insult is harmful. Calling out prejudice is not on the same level as prejudice itself.

So I guess my contribution for us moving forward is that yes, it's great to advocate for us all to be more pleasant and kind. But I also think that if these types of things come up, we should call them out for what they are and condemn them. If the overall community does not tolerate these interactions, then the person being targeted has no reason to get defensive, and we can avoid a lot of what we saw in that game. I have no idea how this could (or even should) be translated into a game rule. But it's something we should think about.

I'll ask you this then - when does it stop kgray? I was labeled a bigot and you even endorsed those comments made at me. You say it's unacceptable for the community to say we all need to cool off, which I will counter back with it's unacceptable that my character was assassinated continuously even after apologizing and trying to move on.

We were all asked to stop provoking each other, yet Durga and ghug didn't respect that in M62 and continued to bait responses out of me when told to stop.

I asked to be modkilled specifically because I couldn't take the amount of crap I was receiving from them over the statement and the continued character assassination directed at me.

[worcej]

I say 2 games only because it spilled over into the second game.

You can't spend several paragraphs saying how you profusely apologized for your sexist comment and in the same breath say that your comment wasn't sexist.

There is no "gray area" that you speak of. Your use of bitch was sexist, Durga's use was not. It was used in two completely different contexts.

My point is I'd have called Durga the same thing if she was a man. It was not gendered, but was received as gendered, thus I am in the wrong.

So yes, with that important context established, I can spend several paragraphs saying how I profusely apologized for my sexist comment and in the same breath say that your comment wasn't intended to be sexist.

[worcej]

I say 2 games only because it spilled over into the second game.

You can't spend several paragraphs saying how you profusely apologized for your sexist comment and in the same breath say that your comment wasn't sexist.

There is no "gray area" that you speak of. Your use of bitch was sexist, Durga's use was not. It was used in two completely different contexts.

My point is I'd have called Durga the same thing if she was a man. It was not gendered, but was received as gendered, thus I am in the wrong.

So yes, with that important context established, I can spend several paragraphs saying how I profusely apologized for my sexist comment and in the same breath say that my comment wasn't intended to be sexist.

Fixed my typo.

[Tom Bombadil]

I say 2 games only because it spilled over into the second game.

You can't spend several paragraphs saying how you profusely apologized for your sexist comment and in the same breath say that your comment wasn't sexist.

There is no "gray area" that you speak of. Your use of bitch was sexist, Durga's use was not. It was used in two completely different contexts.

My point is I'd have called Durga the same thing if she was a man. It was not gendered, but was received as gendered, thus I am in the wrong.

So yes, with that important context established, I can spend several paragraphs saying how I profusely apologized for my sexist comment and in the same breath say that your comment wasn't intended to be sexist.

I understand what you are saying, but what you are saying is wrong. Its the equivalent of saying calling someone a Jew for being cheap isn't anti-Semitic because you call all your cheap friends Jews regardless of whether they are Jewish or not. Do you see why that is problematic?

[Tom Bombadil]

And to be clear, I'm focusing exclusively on you because it just happened. I wasn't in the game when this all happened, so I don't have direct knowledge of all the responses. And in previous games there have been many instances of very personal attacks I believed crossed the line.

[BunnyGo]

I think Eden's post and dargo's summary are quite well done. I'll not rehash everything, but there was one party that seemed aggrieved to me that others still are not addressing: I think ND has been unfairly attacked in mafia games for his known political beliefs. Yes, he's abrasive. And he can be obnoxious, and many of his posts are mean or inappropriate. His political beliefs are abhorrent. But But I don't know what the community wants to do in these situations when we don't respond in the manner we strive to. Perhaps it was just that people felt they had no other support?

I bring this all up because I worry that a move to legislate and legalize behavior will lead to a situation where feelings are litigated instead of considered.

I went back to search his name.

ND shows up at about the 7 hour mark:

Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

##VOTE DURGA

I read the first page and saw that from Drugna. Literally the only page I have read so far lol.

Durga immediately responds:

Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

##VOTE DURGA

Was a nice few hours before I remembered ND was in this game l ô l

I read the first page and saw that from Drugna. Literally the only page I have read so far lol.

Ok if we're talking about useless and terrible as criteria

##vote nd

Bye see y'all at night

It spirals badly from there...(there had been some banter about ND prior to his arrival too, actually started by me.)

Up until this point though is an interesting situation. I don't have an answer, but I bring it up because I don't think Eden's desired for rules to fix our situation is itself a solution.

At this point, none of the newer players would have reasonably seen anything wrong. My point is that ND's opening is only rude if we all know he and Durga don't get along. Her response was more obviously rude, but might have been banter.

I was messaging Eden a bit during the game, and my general message was "man, everyone is hurt and it all sucks. And I'm glad I'm not the GM! Good luck figuring out what to do!"

I feel that way now too. I have no deeper suggestions than simply a warning against trying to legislate your way out of it. Guidelines yes, but I know that having lines and gray areas is a recipe to force repeated decisions and more hurt feelings.

In any case, I'll leave you after this rambling post with some words of wisdom.

First in the words of Hillel: if you dislike something, don't do it to others. The rest is commentary.

Next from a much better psychologist, conflict resolutions expert, and all around nice guy: What are your needs, and how are they not being met?

I think if we say and hear those more, we'll find our way.

[BunnyGo]

Hmm...I missed a lot of posts while composing that.

[Bonatogether]

We don't need a long list of rules if everyone agrees to just not be a jackass and apologizes.

[kgray]

I frequently use the word in my daily conversations when labeling people who are being unjustifiably rude and demeaning, as I thought she was doing.

Do you honestly use this word to describe men who are acting that way? Not men who are acting cowardly or weak (and I'm not even going to get into why that's also offensive) but men who are being "unjustifiably rude and demeaning." Because I would guess that you don't, and that's why it's a gendered and targeted attack. And even if you do, then you have to take some responsibility for understanding the context of the words you use. You can't just say "that's not how I mean it" when people call you out.

Also, I would like to point out that ND in that game made *much* more unjustifiably rude and demeaning comments than Durga did, and nowhere did you call ND a bitch for how he was acting. If your criteria is someone being unjustifiably rude and demeaning, then you had plenty of opportunities to apply the same label to ND. Instead you called him abrasive.

I still don't have an apology for people +1'ing negative comments directed at me. (Durga, kgray, and ghug)

If you can point out a comment that I +1'd that was over the line, I'll apologize. But clearly we have different ideas of what's over the line, because I don't think that calling you out for offensive behavior is over the line.

[Tom Bombadil]

I say 2 games only because it spilled over into the second game.

You can't spend several paragraphs saying how you profusely apologized for your sexist comment and in the same breath say that your comment wasn't sexist.

There is no "gray area" that you speak of. Your use of bitch was sexist, Durga's use was not. It was used in two completely different contexts.

My point is I'd have called Durga the same thing if she was a man. It was not gendered, but was received as gendered, thus I am in the wrong.

So yes, with that important context established, I can spend several paragraphs saying how I profusely apologized for my sexist comment and in the same breath say that your comment wasn't intended to be sexist.

I understand what you are saying, but what you are saying is wrong. Its the equivalent of saying calling someone a Jew for being cheap isn't anti-Semitic because you call all your cheap friends Jews regardless of whether they are Jewish or not. Do you see why that is problematic?

I guess the bottom line is that even if you claim your use of the word bitch is gender neutral, and that you would call a guy a bitch for the same thing, 99.99999% of the world realizes that is a gender based slur that does not imply an unpleasant person, but instead an unpleasant woman.

[worcej]

I frequently use the word in my daily conversations when labeling people who are being unjustifiably rude and demeaning, as I thought she was doing.

Do you honestly use this word to describe men who are acting that way? Not men who are acting cowardly or weak (and I'm not even going to get into why that's also offensive) but men who are being "unjustifiably rude and demeaning." Because I would guess that you don't, and that's why it's a gendered and targeted attack. And even if you do, then you have to take some responsibility for understanding the context of the words you use. You can't just say "that's not how I mean it" when people call you out.

Also, I would like to point out that ND in that game made *much* more unjustifiably rude and demeaning comments than Durga did, and nowhere did you call ND a bitch for how he was acting. If your criteria is someone being unjustifiably rude and demeaning, then you had plenty of opportunities to apply the same label to ND. Instead you called him abrasive.

I still don't have an apology for people +1'ing negative comments directed at me. (Durga, kgray, and ghug)

If you can point out a comment that I +1'd that was over the line, I'll apologize. But clearly we have different ideas of what's over the line, because I don't think that calling you out for offensive behavior is over the line.

Yes, I called my male coworker a 'B word' today for giving the new guy crap for accidentally spraying him with a water hose and being passive aggressive with his complaining hours later.

And by no means am I dismissing the feeling of a gendered attack - it was received that way and that's all that matters. I am trying to say is it wasn't my intent - which is important in the context of me being labeled a misogynist in response.

And to be clear, a majority of ND's comments were just abrasive and there is a LOT of context between ND and Durga. Durga and Bona did not have the same context.

[dargorygel]

Thanks for writing, everyone. Jamie and I are attempting to find a way to ‘moderate,’ not to ‘extreme.’ To that end… (and these are primarily MY comments… I have not run them past the other councilperson.)

a) Bunny IS correct. Rules alone are not going to help. Chesterton quipped accurately, and I paraphrase: “If you aren’t guided by ten rules, you’ll end up with 10,000.”

b) But SOME rule-type things show us the edge of the path. Maybe we need to think about the rule-type things like those inflatable bowling alley things that keep immature bowlers from throwing gutter-balls.

c) We all do really know when the border is crossed. Everyone knew worcej crossed it (he does not deny it.) But there were more borders crossed. The ongoing conversation did not seek to resolve, but rather to escalate. (At least partially because affronts were not immediately and strongly dealt with… see below.)

d) Eden and I should have slammed the guillotine immediately… but we were not online. By the time we were able to come on, the conversation was no longer a conversation, but was a constant escalation. While NOT as bad as the initial comment, the escalation is also a major part of the problem.

e) When we DID attempt to stop the escalation we were ignored.

f) WHEN WE did ATTEMPT TO STOP THE ESCALATION WE WERE IGNORED.

g) But we competitive folk, in a very competitive game, with very competitive goals, seem to need to have the last word. And that escalates. It does not resolve.

h) Lots of us… no, lots of YOU!! had the chance to stop the escalation, after NO one was ‘ignoring’ the offense… and NO one was just blithely saying, ‘who cares?’… and NO one was wearing blinders and moving on… the conversation went on and on, harsher and harsher.

i) We have the right to say what we desire. But a) our right to swing our fist wherever we desire ENDS at someone else’s chin. And b) There are consequences to what gets said.
j) In the past, I have advocated a very hands-off approach for the Council. We do not want word/thought/attitude police. Jamie nor I have time or desire for that.

k) But please be aware, that however the Council end up ruling on this… I have changed my mind. It is Jamie and my (presently) job to act forthrightly, as rapidly as RL allows, and firmly.
l) So that you know… if present darg could talk to past darg, these are the actions I would have taken. First, as soon as I read the original statement(s) worcej would have been ejected (wearing my GM hat.) Of course, at times, warnings will be sufficient… but this was over the top. Second, (as we did) I would state, “SHUT UP ABOUT IT.” And then if anyone blathered on (or attacked on, or commented on, or had to have one more final really important last word) I would have ejected them, as well. The game would have been hurt short term. But it would have been the right thing for the sake of our players in the long term. After the game… the Council would have met and decided a length of ban, based on individual situations, past infractions, and what I had for breakfast.

m) Please also note… that Durga was not the only player attacked. And I, looking back, would have treated the other attacks the same way.

n) In the future, Jamie and I intend to have ONE of us outside of each game… because the games need it, unfortunately.

o) I expect there will be a system of review and appeal.

Talk on.

[worcej]

And to be clear, I'm focusing exclusively on you because it just happened. I wasn't in the game when this all happened, so I don't have direct knowledge of all the responses. And in previous games there have been many instances of very personal attacks I believed crossed the line.

Not taking it personal or feel ganged up on, I just disagree with you stating I am being revisionist.

I know what I did wrong and what I need to do better and I am not sweeping my role under the rug or trying to justify it.

[ghug]

I wrote a post and then deleted it.

This conversation is difficult, because we all still feel strongly about the incident, and we can't really discuss a path forward without talking about it, but unless we intend to ban someone for the events that transpired, I think that we're better off avoiding details that aren't strongly necessary for getting to that path forward. I don't think I'm any more likely to convince worcej of my positions on the underlying differences between us than he is me.

[dargorygel]

I wrote a post and then deleted it.

This conversation is difficult, because we all still feel strongly about the incident, and we can't really discuss a path forward without talking about it, but unless we intend to ban someone for the events that transpired, I think that we're better off avoiding details that aren't strongly necessary for getting to that path forward. I don't think I'm any more likely to convince worcej of my positions on the underlying differences between us than he is me.

In the end, I share those worries/concerns, ghug. But i also see value in airing them in HERE, and hopefully the articulations will enable 'us' to feel heard... and make some conclusions about what we will do NEXT time... smile, drink medium amounts of good bourbon... and play Mafia.

[worcej]

I say 2 games only because it spilled over into the second game.

You can't spend several paragraphs saying how you profusely apologized for your sexist comment and in the same breath say that your comment wasn't sexist.

There is no "gray area" that you speak of. Your use of bitch was sexist, Durga's use was not. It was used in two completely different contexts.

My point is I'd have called Durga the same thing if she was a man. It was not gendered, but was received as gendered, thus I am in the wrong.

So yes, with that important context established, I can spend several paragraphs saying how I profusely apologized for my sexist comment and in the same breath say that your comment wasn't intended to be sexist.

I understand what you are saying, but what you are saying is wrong. Its the equivalent of saying calling someone a Jew for being cheap isn't anti-Semitic because you call all your cheap friends Jews regardless of whether they are Jewish or not. Do you see why that is problematic?

The issue I have with the example presented here (and what I countered with Durga when she presented the N word) is that the word you're using is such an obvious 'no-no' due to the racism and history of the word. Perhaps I am splitting hairs, but obvious~racist~words are a duuuuuh where 'a female dog' is used a lot more liberally now and days.

I am not saying what I did wasn't problematic - again, I own that portion that what I did was in the wrong and it isn't tolerable.

[BunnyGo]

I wrote a post and then deleted it.

This conversation is difficult, because we all still feel strongly about the incident, and we can't really discuss a path forward without talking about it, but unless we intend to ban someone for the events that transpired, I think that we're better off avoiding details that aren't strongly necessary for getting to that path forward. I don't think I'm any more likely to convince worcej of my positions on the underlying differences between us than he is me.

In the end, I share those worries/concerns, ghug. But i also see value in airing them in HERE, and hopefully the articulations will enable 'us' to feel heard... and make some conclusions about what we will do NEXT time... smile, drink medium amounts of good bourbon... and play Mafia.

I'm interested in hearing anyone's answer to the following. Please read it with as much earnestness and sincerity as you possibly can something from the internet:

What are your needs, and how are they not currently being met?

[ghug]

I wrote a post and then deleted it.

This conversation is difficult, because we all still feel strongly about the incident, and we can't really discuss a path forward without talking about it, but unless we intend to ban someone for the events that transpired, I think that we're better off avoiding details that aren't strongly necessary for getting to that path forward. I don't think I'm any more likely to convince worcej of my positions on the underlying differences between us than he is me.

In the end, I share those worries/concerns, ghug. But i also see value in airing them in HERE, and hopefully the articulations will enable 'us' to feel heard... and make some conclusions about what we will do NEXT time... smile, drink medium amounts of good bourbon... and play Mafia.

I can't promise medium amounts.

[dargorygel]

While I abhor psychobabble, other than MINE... I'll answer, bunny. Even though it will reveal my deep inner insecurities and strange issues.

First, I need to have my self identity as a goldfish acknowledged.

But more seriously, I need to have the position of GM and Council respected. Not ME... but it offended and offends me that the GM and Council in 'that game' were ignored repeatedly.