Unhide mafia

[Durga]

Hey can someone unhide the mafia thread it's very inconvenient for everyone playing for it to be hidden. Thanks

[rdrivera2005]

Agree. Why it was hidden?

[jmo1121109]

Requested by Tom B a couple of days ago, just got to it.

[dargorygel]

Good morning webdipmafiators

In response to the requests to remove the [hidden] aspect of our mafia games…
A) While jmo (as a site admin) did change the game from public to hidden at the request of the GM (Tom Bombadil) that request was made before the start of the game. Tom accidently omitted the [hidden], and it is not within my mod powers to edit thread titles. In hindsight, I probably should have asked Tom to erase the thread and start over.
B) The REASON that the maf-games on this site are hidden is for these reasons.
a. At times, the language here is questionable. The mods (even me!) are not prudes. But we do intend that our site be family-welcoming. Rather than cause the Kouncil have to censor the language, we opted to Hide it. WE can find it. But the language (which strangely enough, when it occurs seems to hang forever on the front page) is a poor face for us.
b. At times, the decorum here is questionable. The mods (even me!) do not really expect everyone to be nice and polite. (It is not at all in the nature of this game.) At times the insults and manners are embarrassing in hindsight… and should even be ATM of posting. Rather than cause the Kouncil have to censor the language, we opted to Hide it. WE can find it. But the decorum (which strangely enough, when it occurs seems to hang forever on the front page) is a poor face for us.
c. Remember, that when we play Mafia, our thread stays right there on the top of the front page. For weeks. And the face we display causes community reactions. I have rarely had a week of mafia-gaming go by without at least one reaction PM me, here or in discord. I attempt to calm them down… and smile patronizingly. But I also understand the complaint.
d. In short, everything that is posted visibly on the front page of webDiplomacy is an advertisement. I LIKE having mafia there. I think the game is grand, and I think there is a natural connection between mafia and Diplomacy ™. But that advertisement becomes negative when “F*** YOU” is stuck on the page for hours.
C) M61.
a. We had a segment in the last game where the decorum was atrocious. Not only was the exchange between four particular players very inappropriate, but the GM efforts to stop the exchange were completely ignored.
b. I am NOT commenting on the TOPIC of discussion. I think that self-policing is a good thing for our game. But not when it becomes vigilantism. Which this did. Blatantly ignoring the GM’s request to stop discussing, many felt they had to say ‘one more thing.’ Which kept the discussion at the top.
D) The ongoing [hidden] discussion
a. It is not our constitutional, political, or human right to play mafia on this site. As I said, I PREFER Mafia to be played here. But we ‘get to.’ It is a privilege.
b. I dislike the [hidden]. I have fought against it often and articulately.
c. I do not see that having a SINGLE mafia game at the top of the front page is obtrusive. YES, it stays there for weeks. But it is only one thread.
d. YES it is an inconvenience for us.
e. In fact, before the last game, I argued a lot. And the admin/mod team agreed to let us remove the [hidden.] It had been omitted the past few games… and outsiders were beginning to question it. But I received approval from all the admins to omit the [hidden].
f. And then the worst blowup we have had in many many many months occurred.
g. Personally, the crisis interfered with my professional life. I can’t imagine the disrespect President Eden felt as the room continued to disregard his requests, AND increased the level of angst/anger/disruption.
h. I had to retract my words about how the thread had gotten better… that we were no longer such a bad advertisement.
i. I will not be urging the admin/mod team to retract their [hidden] requirement.
E) Toxicity
a. We have the right to post what we want to post.
b. But that right ends when it effects others.
c. “The right to swing my fist around my head ends at the point where it hits another’s chin.”
d. BOTH sides of the dispute in the last game did not care whose chin they hit.
e. Yes, it is competitive in this thread… but PARTICULARLY in non-game issues, you do not have to always have ‘the last word.’
f. Interestingly, only one of the major participants in the Big Blowup saw they had anything to regret or apologize for… not even in private.

So in short, as half of the Kouncil, and the Mod on the Kouncil… that is my two cents.

I will not be encouraging the admins to unhide us, unfortunately.

[rdrivera2005]

Dargo, I wish I can say you are wrong and that people can self regulate. But you are right.

[Durga]

I have a lot of issues with what you're saying darg, and think you're absolutely painting this unfairly, but I'll leave it. There's nothing wrong with the current game but I don't have the energy to convince you to not make things inconvenient for what is probably like 50% of the forum use. I understand hiding it if things got bad, but pre-emptively hiding it seems just silly.

[President Eden]

Is this the right place for the M62 retrospective? I haven't written it up yet, and with a lot of overlap between M62's roster and the ongoing game, I'm wondering how much I should discuss while I'm still alive. But M62 seems to be a focal point in the decision to hide the game.

I'll make public the position I gave to darg in private during M62 -- I think I would rather the mafia community change its own rules to forbid the behavior that requires games to be hidden than to allow the behavior but hide the game. The biggest driver of growth for the mafia community has been people curiously checking out the forum. The front page advertising makes that very easy, not to mention more convenient for the players. It's a valuable asset to us, so maybe we should be more amenable to changing the way we play to benefit the site administrators. If the behavior is so bad that it needs to be hidden because it's a detriment to the site, maybe it doesn't need to be in the game.

Without writing that retrospective off the cuff right now, and without calling out individual people, I feel I failed as a GM in M62 by not clamping down on noxious behavior -- the type that would get the game hidden -- early enough to head it off. Although Rule 0 would have given me the ability to do it, I was hesitant to do so because traditionally we have given wide latitude to players to say what they want, provided that it advances their win condition. I didn't know if that mentality had changed, and if that were still the cultural norm of the community, I didn't feel it was right of me to impose a different standard on my own power unannounced. Of course, things ended up cascading into such a mess that I think in retrospect no one would have objected to a firmer hand early on to head this off.

I am sad that our games need to be hidden, but I can't really fault administration for coming to that conclusion after M62. I think we should look into changing the rules in a way that makes us able to play unhidden again.

[worcej]

I have a lot of issues with what you're saying darg, and think you're absolutely painting this unfairly, but I'll leave it. There's nothing wrong with the current game but I don't have the energy to convince you to not make things inconvenient for what is probably like 50% of the forum use. I understand hiding it if things got bad, but pre-emptively hiding it seems just silly.

I was going to just keep quiet, but seeing this I feel compelled to respond.

Durga - Is darg's painting of the situation really unfair? Yes, you were attacked and called the B word and you didn't deserve those actions and received a wealth of apologies for it.

You know what I got? I was the subject of numerous personal attacks by the other parties involved in this incident. The items that I found to be over the line are the following:

1. The offensive and baseless accusation that I am a misogynist and when I asked for an explanation on what specifically was this behavior, I never got the explanation and the request was completely ignored. It's been ~4 weeks since I asked for more details in an attempt to understand my behavior, and having received no really feedback from the offended party, I am of the opinion to label the accusation as baseless.
2. The reference to the condition of my relationship with my wife, notably in a negative manner
3. The continued snarky and provoking comments made at me after we were requested to ‘cool off’ in the name of the game and the lack of any understanding on how
4. The ‘+1’s to negative jokes and references towards me, indicating support for said inappropriate behavior being carried out towards me
5. The continued jokes and references about myself when I was no longer able to defend myself after I had been removed from the game, which was done so by my request because I was so upset at having my character assassinated by multiple people.

Up to this post, I have received only one apology, that was in regards to referencing my wife in a joke, but this person later made a statement saying they regret apologizing for any of it. At this point, I do not expect any apology or acceptance of wrong doing for the items above - there has been enough clear evidence that the other parties do not feel they are in the wrong for their actions, and it is even shown when you (Durga) posted this last night:

Sick of bitxhes shading and not voting, go on, don't call me your strongest scum read and then not vote me. Let's go

How is it okay for you to call other people the same word I called you? I was admonished for it and called (effectively) a bigot, yet it's okay for you to use it yourself? This is hypocrisy and the fact it was even said after the amount of crap I got is jaw-dropping.

Ultimately, the lack of several of us (myself entirely included) to self-police our actions and language is why the games need to be hidden. We are not good people and I don't think it's unfair for the Admins/Mods to want our games hidden because of how we carry ourselves.

[Durga]

Lmao I said that in reference to ghug and HR who are my dear friends... Why are you talking about an ongoing mafia game outside of the thread...

[Durga]

Why can't we remove people for questionable behaviour instead of hiding the thread..? If anyone crosses a line regarding the site rules they should be warned and then silenced if it continues instead of having the thread hidden.

[Chaqa]

IMO the mafia culture had improved markedly over the last few years.

It hasn’t been toxic until the last few games.

The cause of this I will leave to everyone’s judgment.

[worcej]

Lmao I said that in reference to ghug and HR who are my dear friends... Why are you talking about an ongoing mafia game outside of the thread...

I am talking about it only because it explicitly applies to why our games are hidden.

I don't care if you're friends with ghug or HR, it's unacceptable that I was admonished for using the word and you think you can just use it yourself.

[Durga]

Lmao I said that in reference to ghug and HR who are my dear friends... Why are you talking about an ongoing mafia game outside of the thread...

I am talking about it only because it explicitly applies to why our games are hidden.

I don't care if you're friends with ghug or HR, it's unacceptable that I was admonished for using the word and you think you can just use it yourself.

You called me a bitch because you admit you hate me.

It's not the use of the word, I use the word when I talk to my friends all the time, it's all about context. It is NOT acceptable to call me that word with vitriol which is what you did. It was offensive. Go ahead and ask them if they were offended by my use of it towards them.

[Durga]

I also recommend PMing Tom with any complaints as opposed to starting fights on public forums regarding ongoing games

[worcej]

Lmao I said that in reference to ghug and HR who are my dear friends... Why are you talking about an ongoing mafia game outside of the thread...

I am talking about it only because it explicitly applies to why our games are hidden.

I don't care if you're friends with ghug or HR, it's unacceptable that I was admonished for using the word and you think you can just use it yourself.

You called me a bitch because you admit you hate me.

It's not the use of the word, I use the word when I talk to my friends all the time, it's all about context. It is NOT acceptable to call me that word with vitriol which is what you did. It was offensive. Go ahead and ask them if they were offended by my use of it towards them.

No, I called you that *because* you were acting incredibly rude and overbearing to someone for no reason. It had nothing to do with 'hating you' that I called you that, it was literally me summarizing your actions in a fast way. Me disliking you contributed to the necessity of calling you out for the behavior. There is a big difference between these.

Back on point - You cannot be offended by being called a word and use it yourself at other people - this is hypocrisy. If it's offensive to be called that word, in any way, then you should not be calling others the same thing. By using it how you just did, it provides context to people, like myself, to use it in regards to yourself how we see fit.

[damo666]

Please hide this thread.

[worcej]

I also recommend PMing Tom with any complaints as opposed to starting fights on public forums regarding ongoing games

This isn't a fight and has nothing to actively do with the current game.

You asked for the game to be unhidden. I am expressing my opinion that the lack of self-reflection and ability to self-police is why we cannot be unhidden. Additionally, when some members do actually commit wrong-doing, they are unable to own up to their mistakes and do not try to make amends, kicking the can down the road per-say.

[Durga]

So you can't be offended if a white person uses the n word against you if you as a black person says the n word? Like what

Ok worcej, I just can't deal with you, please stop addressing me thanks

[worcej]

So you can't be offended if a white person uses the n word against you if you as a black person says the n word? Like what

Ok worcej, I just can't deal with you, please stop addressing me thanks

There's a lot more context to why that word is used how it is today that you are purposely omitting with this counter example.

Taking that example away - yeah, you shouldn't call people names if you don't like being called them back.

[worcej]

Simply put - we shouldn't name call. The end.