M61 - The Mastermind's Revenge - Game Thread - HIDDEN

[ghug]

Okay but what is interesting about people voting for Flum over Jamie? Teacon wasn't really an option at the time any of us voted Flum, especially after I moved off, so the choice was really down to those two. What about any of those votes makes you think someone "really wanted Flum dead more than Jamie"?

I don't think kgray says this if she's scum with Jamie.

You think she doesn't think this or doesn't bother saying it?

"Okay but what is interesting about people voting for Flum over Jamie?" is not something you say if one is dead and the other is your teammate.

[bo_sox48]

Cause I like Flum, find him valuable as town, and wanted to kill someone better.

So like... nothing in here says "I think he's town" but okay. Assuming it was implied, why do you think he is town?

I said repeatedly they I null read him. Read the thread.

I have, and I'm well aware that you have been very careful to avoid reading him any way other than by saying you don't townread him or scumread him, but you think he's a good player when he's town, and he's worth keeping around in case he's town, etc etc. Swing and a miss, yay me.

[TheMadMonarch]

OK, I would like to know what you think would have been optimal for the mafia.

90
Recruit (10)
Restless spirit (-25)
[those two are good, the rest I picked just to fill remaining space with minimal cost]
Fruit vendor (-24) [I thought I read somewhere that you could "sell fruit" or something; it was a source of income]
Neighborizer (-24) [cheap, and seems to do something]
Public Vanilla (-24) [also cheap, and it's not bad]
Voyeur (-26) [cheap]

A lot of this is just to get those first two, which, in my opinion, are the coolest.

I do hope you are scum

Why?

[TheMadMonarch]

5 hours later, and I'm finally caught up.

Flum died, unexpected and not great, but him being the spirit makes that less worse.

I skimmed over a lot, but I think I probably have the general gist of things. I definitely still trust Jamie, and I'm liking Bo_ and kgray more as well.

Ghug is still a little weird (did he say he was enjoying being scumread? Why?).

That's all for now!

[bo_sox48]

Seth, it seems as if your read on Flum developed very quickly here:

Reaction test?

What are you doing? Regretting you didn't spring for daychat?

Wondering if flum is getting pressure in the day chat to stop advocating for a massclaim.

This is the first indication I see from you that you scumread Flum. What drove you to think Flum was scum at this point?

The first indication from you that I see that you scumread Jamie is here:

All three of the top wagons have been on my radar. Can't decide whether flums reaction test was malicious or just a bad idea.

You never specified further on Jamie, but you clearly have your eye on him. Did you make any effort into reading Jamie, or learn anything out of what you read of him? I don't see much from you on the matter.

The first indication that you have teacon in your sights also comes in that post, and yet you never give any information about your thoughts on teacon. You have not asked him any questions, and you actually have never even said his name or spoke with him. How was he on your radar?

[ghug]

@ghug
You wrote:
"On early votes, I specifically do find Jamie, damo, and darg suspicious. Jamie's vote I think makes sense in his meta as either alignment, but he's otherwise very scummy. damo's and darg's both feel opportunistic, and they both are otherwise feeling scummy."

I was not an early vote... but a mid vote. Or a 'second time around vote.' I think I explained pretty well why i voted for flum (and was wrong.) But I get that you think I was being opportunistic about something. (I do not know what, since when I was joining the wagon, it was very small.)

But what I would like to talk about with you is what I am 'feeling scummy.' Frankly, your persistence without reason is causing me to wonder about your other reads. Can you help me see what makes me scummy in your eyes?

You feel like nervous darg instead of chill darg. I remember being scum with you

[ghug]

So like... nothing in here says "I think he's town" but okay. Assuming it was implied, why do you think he is town?

I said repeatedly they I null read him. Read the thread.

I have, and I'm well aware that you have been very careful to avoid reading him any way other than by saying you don't townread him or scumread him, but you think he's a good player when he's town, and he's worth keeping around in case he's town, etc etc. Swing and a miss, yay me.

What are you implying?

[ghug]

5 hours later, and I'm finally caught up.

Flum died, unexpected and not great, but him being the spirit makes that less worse.

I skimmed over a lot, but I think I probably have the general gist of things. I definitely still trust Jamie, and I'm liking Bo_ and kgray more as well.

Ghug is still a little weird (did he say he was enjoying being scumread? Why?).

That's all for now!

I do enjoy being scumread. It gives a unique perspective on people's reads when you know they're wrong. Yours, for example, seems logical.

[bo_sox48]

I said repeatedly they I null read him. Read the thread.

I have, and I'm well aware that you have been very careful to avoid reading him any way other than by saying you don't townread him or scumread him, but you think he's a good player when he's town, and he's worth keeping around in case he's town, etc etc. Swing and a miss, yay me.

What are you implying?

I'm saying I have read the thread, and on account of how careful I felt you were being to not explicitly read him I tried to get you to talk about a read you didn't make. You didn't, so I'm dropping it. Good job.

[TheMadMonarch]

5 hours later, and I'm finally caught up.

Flum died, unexpected and not great, but him being the spirit makes that less worse.

I skimmed over a lot, but I think I probably have the general gist of things. I definitely still trust Jamie, and I'm liking Bo_ and kgray more as well.

Ghug is still a little weird (did he say he was enjoying being scumread? Why?).

That's all for now!

I do enjoy being scumread. It gives a unique perspective on people's reads when you know they're wrong. Yours, for example, seems logical.

Kinda makes sense, your still weird.

Thanks for the compliment!

[worcej]

Man, this early EoD time really screwed with me. As I've not been told I'm being replaced I'm going to assume I got away with it, but apologies nonetheless.

GM Note:
You have a firm warning to not repeat and some leniency due to the different time that messed with numerous people and the lack of readily available subs.

[worcej]

Another GM Note:
I will not be able to be around to process EON tomorrow and it will be Donny's first time, so have patience with the phase change.

If you want to be extra helpful to us, get your orders in earlier so I can help get him setup to process them while I am around.

[TheMadMonarch]

So reading EoD, I'm interested to know why @ghug was so keen to pull the votes off of Flum post-claim there. There seems to be an excellent reason why Flum's death was actually great (as there is now a very strong chance we have a second Spirit thanks to the Backup), so Flum's claim probably should have *increased* the reasons to vote him.

I would think the backup does not inherit the spirit's ability, since it uses it's ability on death and the backup doesn't inherit abilities that are out of charges.

##CALL GM Does the backup inherit the spirit's power?

[bozotheclown]

Looking at D1 EOD, I do not see any particular reason to suspect Jamie or teacon are mafia.

[bozotheclown]

@bozo - You were voting for Bunny. You said it was because Durga subbed out. Was there something about Bunny's play that smelled weird to you?

No, but BunnyGo is very good at blending in as scum.

[bozotheclown]

For my survey question, since the mafia obviously knew what they decided, I thought there were a few things they might do:
1. indicate they had not thought about it and/or give a not thought out answer
2. give a reasonable answer different than what they chose, which therefore might not be particularly optimal
3. ignore the question

Here are my opinions of the responses:

Yeah.

Also seems wiser to pluck as many investigative roles as possible, but maybe bozo prefers to defund the police.

What would you have done then?

Recruit, tree stump, even tracker, backup maybe? I'd actually read all the roles and think on it some.

I'd consider going into debt for the Vengeful if it were a little cheaper. Maybe day chat.

ghug's answer is reasonable, although I do not see why the mafia would take a chance on the first eliminated role with the backup when they could just pick another useful role for the same cost, like odd tracker. ghug also threw in some "town telling" by saying he would read all of the roles and think about it more, as well as listing additional things he would consider.

Apparently I was not clear, I would like everyone to please answer this question:

What would you have chosen if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

Oh, I don't know the roles well enough. But I'd definitely take a new recruit. I'd consider going negative and gambling on surviving D1. I'd prioritize sneaky power roles like the double vote or was there one the GM mentioned that could vote after dead?! That'd be awesome. I agree I'd leave aggro roles for town to kill themselves.

BunnyGo's response is not well thought out as it would put the mafia too far negative, but he did sub in late.

I refer you to my previous question.

I meant does the reason I picked them affect your answer.

It was just random, to make the question meet your conditions for being able to answer the question.

Ok. Well as others are pointing out, I'd recruit yet another scum because with a five strong scumteam in a game this size we'd be pretty overpowering. I'd also take the Public Vanilla and the Restless Spirit (to maintain voting power) and otherwise let the dice fall where they may.

After avoiding the question by saying he would need to know the identity of his teammates, Jamie gave a not well thought out answer, even assuming his mention of 5 scum was a comment on my mistakenly giving his 3 scum teammates to consider, because it would put the mafia too far negative. It also was invalid in suggesting the mafia could let their third role be randomly selected.

Apparently I was not clear, I would like everyone to please answer this question:

What would you have chosen if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

I would probably go:
Restless spirit
Odd-Night Tracker
Fruit vendor (the give the maf money? I think I read that somewhere?)
Double voter (provided the vote works more than once)

Frankly, the biggest reason is a don't like roles with limited uses, I'd be scared to use them until it's too late.

Important note, I did not do the math for this, I don't know how much debt it is, it may be bad.

Macca's answer was not well thought out and had too many roles, as did their modified answer.

I'd inform worcej that he either made a counting mistake or has a typo in the setup.

Are you trying to townslip?

No, sorry. What you would do if you were scum with HR and Maniac?

I think I'd still go for a recruit, either someone like Vecna who wouldn't get daykilled (you know, since HR and I would be his teammates...) or maybe you, so you couldn't catch me. And I'd probably feel pretty good about that team so I'd consider the white flag option to avoid going negative while being able to pick the Vengeful role. I'd also definitely would pick the neigborizior since it's free, and would be a lot of fun.

kgray also wanted to know her theoretical teammates before answering. Using the white flag option to select the vengeful seems questionable, and her answer was not complete as it did not give a third role.

again, I'm catching up and posting my replies as I go. Here's another.

Apparently I was not clear, I would like everyone to please answer this question:

What would you have chosen if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

I'm uncomfortable answering this question, as I don't want to give scum any ideas. I did send the godthread a message about this early on... you'll see I was mistaken about some mechanics. However, I will say that I would not have recruited anyone, and I would have picked roles so as to deny town investigative powers.

To clarify, you've been asking people questions. Firstly, about what they'd do with the $90. Second, what they'd do if they were on a scumteam with XYZ. What train of thought led you to ask one question and then the other?

teacon's answer is general but not unreasonable. However, the not recruiting option seems like a possible response from a scum who knows the mafia did recruit.

Apparently I was not clear, I would like everyone to please answer this question:

What would you have chosen if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

I would buy doublevoter, restless spirit and voyeur with no other actions leaving a credit of 8.

damo's answer was complete and reasonable, but again the no recruit option could be a diversion.

Apparently I was not clear, I would like everyone to please answer this question:

What would you have chosen if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

I would have taken the extra member, tree stump, fruit vendor and Voyeur. This will allow the use of RB or RoleCop when needed. I don't see any cheap Role worth spending on it.

rdrivera's answer was complete and reasonable.

Can you please tell me what choices you would have made if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

If not, can you please tell me why you can't or don't want to answer the question?

Because I am absolutely unclear on much and I think a lot of the ideas are ludicrous (a la Fruit Vendor; how is that a helpful enterprise?). However, given the White Flag offers 20 additional credits, I'd choose that, recruit another. I'm not sure after that.

Hamilton's response was incomplete and not well thought out.

Apparently I was not clear, I would like everyone to please answer this question:

What would you have chosen if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

Uh I’m just glad I didn’t have to choose. Looks like the extra recruit is an obvious choice and that takes most of the budget. Other than that it’s probably keep away from town more than anything. Does scum gain money as the game goes on? How do they get out of the negative if they were to go negative?

seth's response was incomplete and included some "town telling".

Apparently I was not clear, I would like everyone to please answer this question:

What would you have chosen if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

recruit obviously. Probably daychat tbh. Then some of the free ones. And absolutely tree stump. I don't see a world where scum wouldn't want that one if it's +2?

Included for completeness and as an example of a known town response.

Sorry Bozo… meant to do this before bedtime.
I would want the daychat and the extra scum.

Which spends my budget.

I would grab the Neighborizer…just because.
I would not care about the free PV.
I would grab the gladiator… because death to the enemy. (And I do NOT want it out there.)

I would grab the stump (which is not as bad as I had thought) for the +2

The +2 I would save for in game RB or RC, because I don’t see the value of low cost other things.

dargorygel's answer was complete and reasonable (and identical to my selections).

@bo_sox
@Chaqa
@dargorygel
@Hamilton
@HR
@Maniac
@Vecna

Can you please tell me what choices you would have made if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

If not, can you please tell me why you can't or don't want to answer the question?

I hadn't put much thought into it, but I would probably do something dumb like going super far negative to get really good roles and a fouth member and day chat and stuff. High risk, High reward.

What's funnny is, I was thinking and I KNEW you would be doing some crazy meta-mechanical-analysis of the pregame purchases lol

Chaqa's answer is incomplete and not well thought out.

@Bozo

I'd recruit and take both trackers to spend my $90, and then go into debt to take the 1-Shot Follower as well, which would leave me with -$3, which you just NK N1 to get yourself back out of debt.

Maybe I'd consider also taking the Universal Backup and NK'ing a couple more times. Essentially the goal would be to make the scum team completely immune to being investigated.

HR's primary answer was reasonable, although the second part was questionable since it sounds like he is adding the backup as a fourth role, and staying negative for 3 days would be very risky for the mafia.

@bo_sox
@Chaqa
@dargorygel
@Hamilton
@HR
@Maniac
@Vecna

Can you please tell me what choices you would have made if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

If not, can you please tell me why you can't or don't want to answer the question?

I don't know, because I have only glanced at the setup. I know the mafia pick some roles out of a hat and recruit someone. I know they have money or some shit to do things with. I would probably have recruited someone who obvtowned during the pregame, which from my perspective excludes Jamie, ghug, and Vecna, and gone into major debt to get some fancy toys assuming that we can all lurk our way to not dying D1 (which means that Chaqa isn't on my team).

bo_sox's response was not well thought out by his own qualification. He also responded at the exact same time as HR, so it is not impossible that they were discussing whether to respond in scum day chat and accidentally cross posted their responses.

I would like to know what everyone would have chosen if they were scum and were making the decision for the mafia.

Here is what I would have done:

Encrypt Day Chat
Recruit Additional Mafia Member
Tree Stump
2-Shot Neighborizer
1-Shot Gladiator

this seems like a great losing strategy lol. you want to have that gladiator on town so they can self-buttfuck

Vecna's only response was to criticize my selection, but I think the gladiator is not a bad choice among the cheap roles to make sure a town does not challenge one of the mafia.

I do not think Maniac ever responded.

[bozotheclown]

In conclusion, the majority of responses included some form of town telling, so I think some of these responses include fake town tells. In my opinion, some of the more questionable of these responses were those of seth, Hamilton, ghug, kgray, and bo_sox.

[bozotheclown]

I looked further into the HR and bo_sox posting. At 5:28, I posted a response to BunnyGo saying that bo_sox, HR, and Maniac had not responded to my question yet. bo_sox and HR both posted their answer at 3:58. At that time, HR's previous post was at 21:39. bo_sox previous post was at 4:07, but his post before that was at 22:41. Considering this lack of posting, both of them posting their answer in the same minute was a significant coincidence. I think it is worth considering the possibility that they discussed whether to answer the question in day chat as 2 of the 3 who had not yet answered, decided they would answer but did not discuss spacing out their answers, then cross posted their answers.

Prior to his 3:58 post, HR posted 3 times from 22:58 to 21:39. Prior to his 4:07 post, bo_sox posted 8 times between 23:01 and 22:41. HR posted 3 times from 3:58 to 3:41. bo_sox posted 4 times between 4:07 and 3:26. The timing of these vote clusters is also somewhat suspicious.

[bozotheclown]

@bo_sox
@Chaqa
@dargorygel
@Hamilton
@HR
@Maniac
@Vecna

Can you please tell me what choices you would have made if you were scum and were making the decision for the mafia?

If not, can you please tell me why you can't or don't want to answer the question?

I don't know, because I have only glanced at the setup. I know the mafia pick some roles out of a hat and recruit someone. I know they have money or some shit to do things with. I would probably have recruited someone who obvtowned during the pregame, which from my perspective excludes Jamie, ghug, and Vecna, and gone into major debt to get some fancy toys assuming that we can all lurk our way to not dying D1 (which means that Chaqa isn't on my team).

It shouldn't, because if I were scum there would be daychat and I'd tell my teammates what to do there.

Lol, as if you'd be the one giving Flum advice.

Daychat is also not a given.

Try again.

Day chat is a given if the mafia is even remotely intelligent.

Can I assume you read the setup sometime between these 2 posts?

[Maniac]

@bozo - you’re right I never responded. I’m an aspiring politician second rule of politIcs is never respond to hypothetical questions.

First rule is to make as much money as you can as quickly as you can. I’m failing miserably on that front.