M60 - Duck Season? (Director's Cut) - Game Thread

[ghug]

Aiight.

##vote bozo.

I need to eat dinner and then spend some time trying to unwind this because I’ve sucked so far.

I don't like this vote Tom. You really think bozo is the scummiest person here? Can you do your ghug case at some point please? I get that you're busy so even just a few bullet points would be fine.

Sorry. I am busier than expected.

I do not think bozo is the scummiest person here, no. I do think he has a good chance of being scum though.

Bullet points on ghug

I think he spent most of D1 subtly encouraging counter wagons to summit. Look at the vote history. A lot of this was under the guise of “making things interesting.” I do expect ghug to this as town to tbh, as he very much values close wagons at eod for information. But I didn’t love how he did it this game. He kicked the tires on many wagons - and at one point said something along the lines of “ive gotta go for a few hours, Tom, Flum make this interesting”. He wanted someone else to do the heavy lifting to potentially be the most suspicious if there was a town miskill that protected summit.

He did vote summit with 24 minutes left at a pivotal point. However, I do think he is the most likely busser here because of the wagons. Ghug has a high opinion of Maniac so he would need a good excuse to vote him D1 and that was the eod counter wagon to summit. He even questioned me saying something like “Maniac isn’t good enough to be in your do not kill D1 list?” He also could not avoid the lead wagons because of his strong known belief in how important it is for everyone to be on the main wagons late. I think he could have been cornered into bussing.

I think past that day, he kicks the tires on multiple wagons and for someone who says they are good at driving wagons he doesn’t do much of it. His most aggressive questioning has tended to come against people who aren’t really in danger (Durga, Vecna etc). He seems to be distancing himself from flips which is unlike him.

Very small thought I’m my mind also is how he engaged me on Alice In Chains - which I think may have been him probing to see if I was traitor and trying to give me an avenue to signal. This is likely nothing but it did strike me as a little awkward.

Finally, considering the flips I do think bussing was happening D1. I’ve explained why I don’t think you would throw summit onto the tracks. I townread HR. I townread Flum. That leaves flash, bozo, Durga and ghug as the most likely bussers. For reasons above I think ghug could have been forced into it.

• There was nothing subtle about my pursuit of counterwagons day one.

• You know I place a high value on information, and I know you and Flum do too, so asking you to continue that effort isn't weird (you even did it for me).

• I was consistently vocally comfortable with summit being the lead wagon, so characterizing it as an EoD jump is unfair.

• The fact that I spent all of day two attempting to line up my top two scumreads in the same way and succeeding undermines your assessment of my more recent play.

[ghug]

A reason I'm a little suspicious of ghug right now is he's largely townread

Much better case

[Fluminator]

I'm actually pretty certain my vote is settled on flash until eod at this point.

He seems to be coasting as long as he can from his Summit vote and he's actively giving nothing. The fact he's using that as his defense still is laughable.

Since I feel partially responsible for the damo and Prado miskills and they both died with flash as their top suspect I'll vote him in their honour.

Do you think Nanook is being any different than flash?

Yeah
Nanook's defense is summit was trying to pocket him or something, and didn't realize this was a bad defense because of the traitor possibilty, which makes me think he might have forgot about the traitor ironically making it a decently townie defense.

Flash's defense was he couldn't believe people would think he'd vote summit on his first post if they were scum partners which is rubbish lol.

[ghug]

Because I like the fact he did the list - it is enlightening.

Do you think Maniac's remaining teammates would choose to vote summit over him for a particular reason?

So you think the 1 in 10 shot of that list is better? I mean, you can just ignore VCA if you want - you do you.

The whole point is that it's probably more than one in ten. You think there's one scum in the group of nonsummitvoters and you seem content killing any of them. That's bad process.

town credit for this line of thinking.

Why?

[Donny Dude]

Do you have any new points you'd like to share? Preferably ones that nobody else has brought up?

Idk if someone has brought this up or not.
But I think Maniac is town.
I don't think Tom should have gone with a crowd vote and instead stuck to his reads as scum probably tried to influence where the shot would go.

Sorry I see you already answered the why. But Who would you have shot if you had the gun?

Honestly, Nanook or Flash.

[kgray]

Aiight.

##vote bozo.

I need to eat dinner and then spend some time trying to unwind this because I’ve sucked so far.

I don't like this vote Tom. You really think bozo is the scummiest person here? Can you do your ghug case at some point please? I get that you're busy so even just a few bullet points would be fine.

Sorry. I am busier than expected.

I do not think bozo is the scummiest person here, no. I do think he has a good chance of being scum though.

Bullet points on ghug

I think he spent most of D1 subtly encouraging counter wagons to summit. Look at the vote history. A lot of this was under the guise of “making things interesting.” I do expect ghug to this as town to tbh, as he very much values close wagons at eod for information. But I didn’t love how he did it this game. He kicked the tires on many wagons - and at one point said something along the lines of “ive gotta go for a few hours, Tom, Flum make this interesting”. He wanted someone else to do the heavy lifting to potentially be the most suspicious if there was a town miskill that protected summit.

He did vote summit with 24 minutes left at a pivotal point. However, I do think he is the most likely busser here because of the wagons. Ghug has a high opinion of Maniac so he would need a good excuse to vote him D1 and that was the eod counter wagon to summit. He even questioned me saying something like “Maniac isn’t good enough to be in your do not kill D1 list?” He also could not avoid the lead wagons because of his strong known belief in how important it is for everyone to be on the main wagons late. I think he could have been cornered into bussing.

I think past that day, he kicks the tires on multiple wagons and for someone who says they are good at driving wagons he doesn’t do much of it. His most aggressive questioning has tended to come against people who aren’t really in danger (Durga, Vecna etc). He seems to be distancing himself from flips which is unlike him.

Very small thought I’m my mind also is how he engaged me on Alice In Chains - which I think may have been him probing to see if I was traitor and trying to give me an avenue to signal. This is likely nothing but it did strike me as a little awkward.

Finally, considering the flips I do think bussing was happening D1. I’ve explained why I don’t think you would throw summit onto the tracks. I townread HR. I townread Flum. That leaves flash, bozo, Durga and ghug as the most likely bussers. For reasons above I think ghug could have been forced into it.

Thanks, I'll have to go reread him to see if I agree. I'm not sure I think all these things are scum-indicative but I'm seeing your points.

Do you think ghug would need to be forced into bussing as opposed to going for it voluntarily for towncred? Is he not usually a busser?

Is the only reason you think I'm town because I'd be too nice to bus summit that hard?

[worcej]

The whole point is that it's probably more than one in ten. You think there's one scum in the group of nonsummitvoters and you seem content killing any of them. That's bad process.

town credit for this line of thinking.

Why?

Because from a simple odds perspective, your line of thinking has a better net chance of hitting scum for anyone that is outside of the off-votes.

I would like to narrow the focus into the smaller group because we have time and it forces scum to kill in your top pile. Also I think we have incredibly scum play from the smaller group.

[kgray]

Hmmmm maybe I'm wrong

About?

Worcej

What has worcej done differently that makes you question your read? Weren't you scumreading him because he wasn't ruffling feathers or yelling at you? He still hasn't done either of those things.

[bozotheclown]

This is seth's first mention of damo D1:

Lots of people talking but nobody voting. ##vote damo

seth's post was proceeded by these:

So, comparisons to last game:

A) Tom is back to his normal natural self, so unless he's vastly improved his scumgame he's almost certainly town.

B) Damo has done a complete 180, is barely present, not giving off his town vibes, and is strongly reminiscent of the mini-mafia where he was scum.

C) Summit's also reverted to type.

Down with ##vote summit wagon atm, would be sympathetic to a damo wagon too.

Damo has been extremely underwhelming today so far.

Also this. Total 180 from the previous few games

Yeah I feel like he really didn't care in the mini game as scum, and I'm not seeing any caring here.

The last 3 were within 20 minutes before seth's post, so seth knew he had a chance of getting a wagon going on damo, and Fluminator, ghug, and Durga did all vote for damo to put damo ahead of summit 4-3.

seth did not say anything else about damo until summit had retaken the lead, when he posted this:

Have to agree. Still not seeing much from damo that has changed my read, it has solidified it to a certain degree. Also the similar posts from Tom and Moscow that both discussed how they preferred other options caught my eye.

Not long after damo dropped down to only 2 votes to summit's 7 votes, and Maniac had 3 votes, seth posted this:

He also did some pretty heavy hi’ing in the beginning of the game. I forgot how much until reading him again. Feeling a little better about damo so making maniac a bigger wagon works for me. ##vote maniac

7 minutes before EOD, when summit was leading Maniac 11-7, seth posted this:

Perfectly happy to see summit flip because he has seemed scummy to me as well. But if he isn’t scum maniac is public enemy number 1 imo.

Summary:
1. seth started a damo wagon because he knew others would vote for damo, despite not giving any reasons why he scum read damo.
2. seth pushed the damo wagon while it was the top counter wagon to summit.
3. When damo was no longer a viable wagon, seth stopped scum reading damo for unexplained reasons and voted for Maniac 5 minutes after Maniac had more votes than damo.
4. seth never mentioned his read of summit while voting for summit's top counter wagons, but just before summit was about to flip scum, seth scum read him for the first time.

People doing scummy shit on D1 and being wrong is not actually scummy in and of itself.

Damo flipping town just now should be all the evidence of that you need.

Why are you only looking at the people that looked poorly on D1 and you ignore any play afterwards? Were on D4 now. People have done shit since day 1. Its so unlike town bozo to not take that into account. If it wasnt that HR was the one pushing you at a moment im suspecting to be suspicious, id be pushing for your crucifixion like no man's business.

seth and Donny are still my top scum reads, but that does not mean I am only looking at D1. However, since the D1 DK was scum, D1 is still our best source of information.

seth voted for Nanook and BunnyGo D2, did not post during the shortened D3, and was voting for damo at the 24 mark of D4. I previously said seth has not done anything since D1 that makes me any less suspicious of him, and that is still the case.

I do not like your argument here, it is easy to criticize players for things they did not do. For instance, I post why seth looked suspicious for his D1, and you say I am ignoring anything after that, yet you are not telling me what seth has done after D1 that should be considering. I am considering what all players did on all days, but I can't post everything I am considering.

If you want a case that covers all days, here is one for you: D1 you avoided voting for summit until he was ahead by 3 votes 7 minutes before EOD, you actively discouraged people for voting for summit during D1, yet after D1 you claimed you were indicating all D1 that you would vote for summit eventually. D2 you started voting for TrPrado, saying in the same post that you were OK with seth as well, yet at EOD when the wagons were BunnyGo vs. seth, you voted for BunnyGo instead of seth. D3 you voted for BunnyGo at the beginning of the day, even though you switched from BunnyGo to TrPrado at the end of D2, and nothing had changed with BunnyGo's claim yet. D4 you had your vote on damo at the 24 hour mark, and are now using damo as an example of why we should not be looking at suspicious activity from D1.

[ghug]

I don't like this vote Tom. You really think bozo is the scummiest person here? Can you do your ghug case at some point please? I get that you're busy so even just a few bullet points would be fine.

Sorry. I am busier than expected.

I do not think bozo is the scummiest person here, no. I do think he has a good chance of being scum though.

Bullet points on ghug

I think he spent most of D1 subtly encouraging counter wagons to summit. Look at the vote history. A lot of this was under the guise of “making things interesting.” I do expect ghug to this as town to tbh, as he very much values close wagons at eod for information. But I didn’t love how he did it this game. He kicked the tires on many wagons - and at one point said something along the lines of “ive gotta go for a few hours, Tom, Flum make this interesting”. He wanted someone else to do the heavy lifting to potentially be the most suspicious if there was a town miskill that protected summit.

He did vote summit with 24 minutes left at a pivotal point. However, I do think he is the most likely busser here because of the wagons. Ghug has a high opinion of Maniac so he would need a good excuse to vote him D1 and that was the eod counter wagon to summit. He even questioned me saying something like “Maniac isn’t good enough to be in your do not kill D1 list?” He also could not avoid the lead wagons because of his strong known belief in how important it is for everyone to be on the main wagons late. I think he could have been cornered into bussing.

I think past that day, he kicks the tires on multiple wagons and for someone who says they are good at driving wagons he doesn’t do much of it. His most aggressive questioning has tended to come against people who aren’t really in danger (Durga, Vecna etc). He seems to be distancing himself from flips which is unlike him.

Very small thought I’m my mind also is how he engaged me on Alice In Chains - which I think may have been him probing to see if I was traitor and trying to give me an avenue to signal. This is likely nothing but it did strike me as a little awkward.

Finally, considering the flips I do think bussing was happening D1. I’ve explained why I don’t think you would throw summit onto the tracks. I townread HR. I townread Flum. That leaves flash, bozo, Durga and ghug as the most likely bussers. For reasons above I think ghug could have been forced into it.

Thanks, I'll have to go reread him to see if I agree. I'm not sure I think all these things are scum-indicative but I'm seeing your points.

Do you think ghug would need to be forced into bussing as opposed to going for it voluntarily for towncred? Is he not usually a busser?

Is the only reason you think I'm town because I'd be too nice to bus summit that hard?

I hate bussing. Makes me feel so guilty.

[ghug]

Does bozo normally OMGUS people?

[kgray]

Aiight.

##vote bozo.

I need to eat dinner and then spend some time trying to unwind this because I’ve sucked so far.

I don't like this vote Tom. You really think bozo is the scummiest person here? Can you do your ghug case at some point please? I get that you're busy so even just a few bullet points would be fine.

Didn't you want bozo yesterday?

Yeah, but a lot of my theory went out the window when I found that he did question summit D1. There's still some suspicion there though.

I didn't see anywhere that Tom scumreads bozo. The only time Tom gave a read of bozo was D1 where he was his strongest townread. This just seemed so random.

[bozotheclown]

Also, for everyone who is insisting seth is town, consider this one post in context of everything else seth did D1:

Perfectly happy to see summit flip because he has seemed scummy to me as well. But if he isn’t scum maniac is public enemy number 1 imo.

I don't get it tbh

All D1 it looked like seth was trying to find alternatives to summit although he barely mentioned summit, yet at EOD when summit was almost certainly going to be the DK, seth scum read summit for the first time.

[Durga]

About?

Worcej

What has worcej done differently that makes you question your read? Weren't you scumreading him because he wasn't ruffling feathers or yelling at you? He still hasn't done either of those things.

I know, but that's such an easy meta to replicate, and his underlying conspiracy and bizarre reasoning is still there, maybe he's just evolving? What do you think of worcej?

[bozotheclown]

Also, for everyone who is insisting seth is town, consider this one post in context of everything else seth did D1:

I don't get it tbh

Yeah me either. Tons of people seemed to have an issue with this post but I don’t see how as I was just making an observation of what I saw if summit did happen to flip town.

It is not the part about Maniac that is suspicious, it is that you never previously scum read summit and were actively pushing his top counter wagons and switch to pushing Maniac insteasd of damo just when Maniac became a larger counter wagon.

[Donny Dude]

I don't like this vote Tom. You really think bozo is the scummiest person here? Can you do your ghug case at some point please? I get that you're busy so even just a few bullet points would be fine.

Didn't you want bozo yesterday?

Yeah, but a lot of my theory went out the window when I found that he did question summit D1. There's still some suspicion there though.

I didn't see anywhere that Tom scumreads bozo. The only time Tom gave a read of bozo was D1 where he was his strongest townread. This just seemed so random.

Tom, What made you start to suspect bozo as scum?

[bozotheclown]

Does bozo normally OMGUS people?

I do when I think their reasons for suspecting me seem fabricated. worcej won M1010 be scum reading me all game for poor reasons and everyone else just ignored it.

[kgray]

Worcej

What has worcej done differently that makes you question your read? Weren't you scumreading him because he wasn't ruffling feathers or yelling at you? He still hasn't done either of those things.

I know, but that's such an easy meta to replicate, and his underlying conspiracy and bizarre reasoning is still there, maybe he's just evolving? What do you think of worcej?

I really don't know. I agree that he's hard to read and he's being less aggressive this game, which isn't like the town!worcej I know, but nothing is striking me as particularly scummy from his posting. His D1 voting was a little suspicious since he wasn't on any of the main wagons, but the way he pushed nanook doesn't seem like he was trying to save summit. I didn't agree with his reasons for scumreading nanook D1, but I still think those reasons could come from town. I'm also starting to agree with his nanook read more as the game goes on, which makes me even less suspicious of him pushing that wagon D1.

[bozotheclown]

Didn't you want bozo yesterday?

Yeah, but a lot of my theory went out the window when I found that he did question summit D1. There's still some suspicion there though.

I didn't see anywhere that Tom scumreads bozo. The only time Tom gave a read of bozo was D1 where he was his strongest townread. This just seemed so random.

Tom, What made you start to suspect bozo as scum?

Are you encouraging scum reads of me because I scum read you?

[worcej]

About?

Worcej

What has worcej done differently that makes you question your read? Weren't you scumreading him because he wasn't ruffling feathers or yelling at you? He still hasn't done either of those things.

About the 3rd game in recent memory where I am trying to not be a dick sometimes and I get scummed.

Pick which worcej you want: dick/asshole or kinda nice but still blunt.