Kill France

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FlaviusAetius
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Re: Kill France

#41 Post by FlaviusAetius » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:13 am

ReRead my opening arguments and reply to those please on the other powers, and it’s better for Italy to go France and then Turkey, but they won’t always, it depends that is a lot better than a guaranteed Turkish attack

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FlaviusAetius
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Re: Kill France

#42 Post by FlaviusAetius » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:14 am

And please if you decide to respond do not repeat that first paragraph in our hypothetical world everyone agrees let’s kill France

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Re: Kill France

#43 Post by FlaviusAetius » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:16 am

Because it’s in my best interest France is dead, respond then to my points
And yes is it a possibility Russia opens north, SURE, I’m saying that’s less beneficial than just letting England focus on France

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FlaviusAetius
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Re: Kill France

#44 Post by FlaviusAetius » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:18 am

Effectively saying Germany—>France better than Germany—>England
Russia south better than Russia north
Austria East better than Austria West
Italy France better than any Italy East
England south better than England north

It’s completely fair to argue the different strategies and why messing up the not attacking France is not beneficial for you over the strategy you are employing
And just because it works does not mean it was best

Matticus13
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Re: Kill France

#45 Post by Matticus13 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:35 am

You've had multiple, highly ranked GR players say the idea is flawed. Your opening statements about the other 6 Powers don't add up either. You don't seem to grasp the concept of why killing France isn't necessarily good for every Power in every situation. Enjoy your thread.

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FlaviusAetius
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Re: Kill France

#46 Post by FlaviusAetius » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:56 pm

'in every situation'
I said time and time again, if everyone agrees to kill france, and they SHOULD because its in their interest

mhsmith0
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Re: Kill France

#47 Post by mhsmith0 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:14 pm

In general, power attitudes towards France in press games (some credit to swordsman, in particular his gunboat solo win guide maps, https://brotherbored.com/diplomacy/gunb ... win-intro/ )

England
IN GENERAL, would rather see France dead than alive
Pushing a lot of resources towards killing France could allow Germany or Russia to take over Scandinavia and then kill England after
E/F can be an extremely powerful alliance, typically the result of a successful E/F is a 3wd with a southern power (likely Austria or Turkey), or some time later in the game one stabs the other for the solo or a 2wd

France
As France, I like France to do well :P

Germany
IN GENERAL, would rather cooperate with England to kill France than with France to kill England
An FG can be a quick and easy way to send off England, and if Russia has better things to do than tag-team Germany with France's help, then it can work ok (if FGR work to kill England, then it's VERY easy for that to turn into FR with G the odd man out)
Given that England is likely to benefit the most from France's death, and France the most from England's death, Germany PROBABLY would most like to see E/F fighting each other without much result so he'll have a chance to overtake both as he grows (and obviously, an E/F alliance is disastrous for him, probably the single worst outcome unless he can put together a functional counter-alliance)

Italy
I would say from Italy's perspective, France is a fantastic ally to have and it's entirely doable to chop the board very cleanly 17/17, and there are plenty of 3wd alliances involving I/F (F/I/R in particular can work great)
If France is not an ally, then France needs to go. In particular, an E/F alliance means that France is gonna attack Italy before long, which is obviously really bad for Italy.
Probably more than any other power, Italy's interests wrt France depend heavily on the overall diplomatic picture. Allying with others to destroy France can work great, allying with France and pushing east (while keeping an eye on the western border and the potential for a nasty stab) can work great as well. Lots of options.

Austria
The only north/west power that really can threaten Austria directly is Germany (and even that's rare). The big thing is that to win, Austria is usually gonna have to conquer at least one of Munich/Berlin so “western powers bog down” is generally helpful (if any of E/F/G can lock down Munich/Berlin, there goes the solo shot)
Austria actually can do OK on an E/F alliance for the most part, as it hurts R/I/G, and all three are powers who can be more actively hostile to Austria
Probably the biggest France danger is if France gets a stranglehold on Tunis and can roll up the northern 17 powers for a solo, and Austria in particular tends to be weak over the ocean… but beyond that I don’t see why Austria would be particularly concerned with France, especially in a press game

Russia
France is Russia’s most natural ally (Italy probably a close 2nd, Turkey 3rd, and E/G/A all possibilities as well), and a successful France can hold down both England and Germany (who are threats to Russia), as well as (longer term) potentially Turkey (also a threat to Russia)
Russia can also do very well profiting from an early game Sealion, taking Scandinavia as a price tag for seeing England off (and it’s not hard to join hands with France to kill Germany afterwards, either)
There’s some long term danger of France rolling up Scandinavia, but a couple northern boats can put that danger to bed, and there are plenty of game states whereby France grows so strong that the southern powers NEED Russia to hold off France up north, and therefore avoid attacking Russia in the south.
If I’m Russia, I’d rather see a 10 center France than a 10 center England or Germany, at the very least, though an early game E/F alliance is all sorts of threatening (all the more so if Germany bounces Sweden in 1901 on the heels of a vacated Channel)

Turkey
I don’t think Turkey deeply cares about how France does? France can be a serious long-term competitor for Tunis (a key center in either power’s solo plans), but unless there’s an R/T Juggernaut alliance at work, Turkey isn’t going to be gunning for France’s centers, and an expansionist France can hold down Italy, which can be GREAT news for Turkey.

mhsmith0
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Re: Kill France

#48 Post by mhsmith0 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:18 pm

FlaviusAetius wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:56 pm
'in every situation'
I said time and time again, if everyone agrees to kill France, and they SHOULD because its in their interest
This take is objectively wrong. France is a strong power, but its downfall helps some powers and hurts others. Even if France does well early game, it's by no means guaranteed to reach a solo, and can in fact help clear the board of threats to different powers (Russia is happy to see E/G suffer; Turkey/Austria potentially happy to see Italy suffer; etc)

And even France's most natural enemy (England) can profit immensely from an E/F alliance (IF the two powers are serious about the alliance). Diplomacy is a pretty balanced game (especially when you play with press), with no single power drastically stronger than any other, so "all should drop everything to hold down France" is imo a naive take.

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