Climate change driving Migration

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orathaic
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Climate change driving Migration

#1 Post by orathaic » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:53 pm

It is only normal that changing climate conditions will force species to migrate in order to find better land, and safer conditions.

It is a huge problem, then, that humans have already occupied the best lands all over the globe and further placed barriers to further human migration. What solutions can we develop to prevent humanitarian disasters the likes of which we have never seen?

(see also: https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -sea-watch)

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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#2 Post by Octavious » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:38 pm

The fundamental problem is that there are too many people to live comfortably with the current resources available without doing further unrecoverable damage to the natural world.

The desire of people to migrate offers the potential to tackle the problem. A strict one child policy in exchange for the right to enter a country could be imposed, perhaps those who are willing to abandon the ability to have children could receive some kind of financial bonus.

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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#3 Post by orathaic » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:38 am

@Octavious, I think humans have a fundamental right to a family.

China is the only example we have of the one child policy, and what happened? Natural population growth is not happening in wealthy countries because people don't want large families. There must be a solution bigger than punishing those who have children...
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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#4 Post by Octavious » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:00 am

orathaic wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:38 am
@Octavious, I think humans have a fundamental right to a family.
As do I, which is why I've not suggested anything that would take away that right.
orathaic wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:38 am
China is the only example we have of the one child policy, and what happened?
It worked? China's population is far more manageable than it otherwise would have been, and now that population explosion is far less of a concern they've been able to relax it.

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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#5 Post by orathaic » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:15 am

That completely ignores the fundamental changes in family units, social structures and caring for the elderly. The pressure on only children to continue the family line... And a myriad of other details.

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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#6 Post by Octavious » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:32 am

No it doesn't. It simply considers those issues to carry less weight than the current climate emergency.

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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#7 Post by orathaic » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:46 am

Octavious wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:00 am
orathaic wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:38 am
@Octavious, I think humans have a fundamental right to a family.
As do I, which is why I've not suggested anything that would take away that right.
So you would be happy with a situation where people are forced to choose between their survival and their fundamental rights. This is pretty fucked up.

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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#8 Post by Octavious » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:05 pm

orathaic wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:46 am
So you would be happy with a situation where people are forced to choose between their survival and their fundamental rights. This is pretty fucked up.
What's pretty fucked up is your comprehension of what I wrote. No such choice was suggested. The right to a family is protected, but not so the size of a family that may be the social norm they're accustomed to. This is nothing unusual. The reality of western life is that very few can feasibly afford the size of families that were common a couple of generations ago. We do not, however, go around saying that we're being denied the right to a dozen kids.

Clearly this would be part of a holistic approach to the environmental situation. Programmes, such as Ethiopia's exemplary tree planting initiative, should be supported and encouraged, as should schemes to improve education in regions that are struggling. But this thread was created specifically to look at migration.

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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#9 Post by orathaic » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:00 pm

You are basically saying those who live in the country can continue to live how they want, but those who migrate are to be treated as second class citizens.

It is precisely the kind of plan which will end in tears.

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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#10 Post by Octavious » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:23 pm

orathaic wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:00 pm
You are basically saying those who live in the country can continue to live how they want, but those who migrate are to be treated as second class citizens.

It is precisely the kind of plan which will end in tears.
It's nothing unusual. Plenty of migrants all over the world live under a different set of rules to the native population. If I travel to Australia with a work visa and I commit a crime, for example, I get booted out. A native Australian gets prison or a fine. I see nothing wrong with this. I see no problem whatsoever with a nation giving preference to its nationals.

Obviously any legal births to the immigrant families should be considered full citizens and have the exact same rights as any other citizen.

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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#11 Post by orathaic » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:55 pm

'legal births', you see no problems with just that phrase? Those who can be illegal just for being born. Not a good look.

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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#12 Post by Octavious » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:18 pm

I know it sometimes seems that we're from different planets, Ora, but you don't have to sound shocked by the mundane. Everyone is born with a legal status. There is nothing unusual about this. Let's consider the situation I'm describing. If you're parents have immigrated and followed the rules you are born with all the rights and privileges of any native citizen. If your parents broke the law then you are born with the status and rights of a newly arrived immigrant.

As much as you are super keen to jump on the idea of being born illegal, that's an idea entirely of your own invention.

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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#13 Post by orathaic » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:45 am

See someone who was born elsewhere, and thus has some claim to citizenship is ok someone born 'illegally' ends up with no claim to citizenship ANYWHERE.

There is a reason the UN declaration of human rights forbids exile as a valid punishment. And declares everyone has a right to citizenship of some place. You don't see how this is problematic?

The whole point of my argument is that climate crisis makes people unsafe Despite having citizenship somewhere; when that somewhere sinks under the sea, or the rain forest you are native to is burned to the ground... Or drought drives you from your land.

The point is to protect the basic human rights of those fleeing through no fault of their own. Not to create an underclass of second class citizens who have less rights. Not to exploit the plight of people trying to survive by telling them they have to sign up to controlled breeding practices (remind you of Eugenics at all?).

If you really see population growth as this serious issue (and that is arguable) then call for a blanket 2-child policy for all citizens. Guarantee replacement rate population growth.

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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#14 Post by Octavious » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:52 am

orathaic wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:45 am
If you really see population growth as this serious issue (and that is arguable) then call for a blanket 2-child policy for all citizens. Guarantee replacement rate population growth.
I see it as a potentially serious issue, and your entire thread is based in a possible future reality in which the climate emergency is fully underway and people are fleeing en mass in desperation. Yet somewhat bizarrely your arguments against my suggestion all seem rooted in the present day reality. I have no interest at all in seeing any such restrictions imposed on the as is situation.

I am somewhat confused by the notion that my proposed initiative for your grim future creates an underclass. The underclass already exists. Your typical Irishman has a far superior quality of life, education, and range of opportunities than does the Moroccan farmer who grows the beans he has for dinner. The Irish government is far more interested in maintaining and improving the lives of its citizens than it is in having citizens of other nations reduce the inequality gap. By allowing migrants into Ireland, albeit with a restricted set of rights compared to born Irishmen, the inequality gap is much reduced rather than increased. Your underclass is elevated to near equality, with absolute equality guaranteed to future generations.

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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#15 Post by orathaic » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:18 pm

Octavious wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:52 am
orathaic wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:45 am
If you really see population growth as this serious issue (and that is arguable) then call for a blanket 2-child policy for all citizens. Guarantee replacement rate population growth.
I see it as a potentially serious issue, and your entire thread is based in a possible future reality in which the climate emergency is fully underway and people are fleeing en mass in desperation. Yet somewhat bizarrely your arguments against my suggestion all seem rooted in the present day reality. I have no interest at all in seeing any such restrictions imposed on the as is situation.
First, it is happening. See people fleeing the Bahamas today (and I know that started after I posted my thread, but it is just the most recent example).

Second, my hypothetical is that it will slowly get worse.

Third, the Amazon has an indegenous population whose very existence is under threat, fleeing for their lives or defending their homes. It may not be climate change alone, as fires were started to clear land, but less water makes the fires worse... So it is related, in fact the whole process of human pride bringing us to the brink of collapse is exactly the cause of those fires.
I am somewhat confused by the notion that my proposed initiative for your grim future creates an underclass. The underclass already exists. Your typical Irishman has a far superior quality of life, education, and range of opportunities than does the Moroccan farmer who grows the beans he has for dinner. The Irish government is far more interested in maintaining and improving the lives of its citizens than it is in having citizens of other nations reduce the inequality gap. By allowing migrants into Ireland, albeit with a restricted set of rights compared to born Irishmen, the inequality gap is much reduced rather than increased. Your underclass is elevated to near equality, with absolute equality guaranteed to future generations.
Near equality in law is a recipe for further inequality. And nothing more, as an Irish man I'm keenly aware of the history of just that kind of injustice. Replicating it is not on my agenda.

You are right that inequality exists in the world, across jurisdictions. But they are not legally enforced as such, ie the powers that be don't say it is illegal for Moroccan farmers to have a lower quality of life than irish physicists. Because the powers that be in Morocco don't have a vested interest in such (slightly untrue where one country invades another and millions starve, ie Yemen and the Saudi mercanaries...).

That notwithstanding, I object to both war, and borders.
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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#16 Post by Kingdroid » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:42 pm

The world has plenty of resources to sustain the current population as is, what we have a lack of is ability or willingness to effectively distribute these resources. Capitalism can't do it, and western countries that have built their wealth off of stealing from the rest of the world are simply unwilling to change that, instead choosing to dehumanize and cause massive death amongst the global poor as the climate crisis worsebs
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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#17 Post by Octavious » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:20 am

Kingdroid wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:42 pm
The world has plenty of resources to sustain the current population as is, what we have a lack of is ability or willingness to effectively distribute these resources. Capitalism can't do it, and western countries that have built their wealth off of stealing from the rest of the world are simply unwilling to change that, instead choosing to dehumanize and cause massive death amongst the global poor as the climate crisis worsebs
Capitalism has helped liberate billions of people from extreme poverty, with extreme poverty levels globally at record lows. Despite increasing population growth in at risk areas, and the impacts of climate change, the number of deaths due to natural disasters has plummeted over the last 100 years. The people of the world have never had it so good. Ora's comment that his prediction of "human disasters the like of which we have never seen" is already happening because of a storm in the Bahamas is so ludicrously far of the mark I'm struggling to take him seriously. We are as far from it happening as we have ever been. But hey, why let facts stand in the way of a political point scoring opportunity?
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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#18 Post by orathaic » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:08 am

Octavious you seem to be ignoring the *not capitalism* which brought people out of poverty in Russia and China (though Chinese people were not in 'poverty' until the Opium wars forced it upon them... Literally).

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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#19 Post by orathaic » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:11 am

And before you suggest 'millions of people' starved to death. The same happened in India (and Ireland) when ruled by capitalist ideologies of the British (really Laissez-faire policies)

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Re: Climate change driving Migration

#20 Post by Octavious » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:35 am

orathaic wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:08 am
Octavious you seem to be ignoring the *not capitalism* which brought people out of poverty in Russia and China (though Chinese people were not in 'poverty' until the Opium wars forced it upon them... Literally).
There are plenty of capitalists in China the last time I looked. I am curious by your assertion that there was no poverty in China prior to the mid 1800s, and look forward to your evidence of this, although we seem to be moving away from the original topic
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