War, what is it good for?

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Out of curiosity, would you call the events conventionally known as miracles (e.g. people rising from the dead) to be observable evidence for the supernatural?

Events are only called miraculous when they far exceed our understanding of what's possible. They aren't evidence for anything other than our ignorance of their cause or, very often, our misinterpretation of what actually happeend. One could claim is that an unlikely or hard-to-explain event may have a supernatural cause, and it really might, but by definition supernatural causes will leave no evidence by which to verify this claim.

[Jamiet99uk]

I'd be curious what Bert's explanation of the order and logic found throughout the universe is. Did it always exist? From where did it come? Why do we even have the universe in the first place? Where did it come from?

As a second note, under what class of truth claim would the accusation of murder fall under? It is not an empirical thing in many cases, if there are no prints or directly scientific connections from the accused to the murder. But it is a knowable thing, certainly. Murderers are convicted even apart from empirical evidence, off of testimony, reasoning, motive, etc.

Did God always exist? From where did he come?

[learnedSloth]

That Israelis are just bigots or religious fanatics feels like a cope. If they're just meanies then the solutions are simple — stop being mean you selfish Israelis.

The problem is their hatreds are based on the mutual hatred held by their enemies. Their willingness to overlook genocidal violence is reciprocal — it's really easy to hate people who hate you, elect a government whose charter includes your genocide, fires rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas, etc. Everyone in Israel knows someone who died in a previous Intifada. They all do compulsory military service and they live in a country you can drive across in like 2h so no one feels safe from conflict and everyone there has imagined dying in a two- or three-front war where Gaza is one of the fronts.

You can think they've brought this situation on themselves because the project of Zionism is misbegotten, because they elected bad-intentioned Bibi, etc. but the fact remains that fear and mutual hatred, more than bigotry and religious fanaticism, are driving the worst aspects of this conflict.

Maybe the international community can restrain Israel regardless of why Israelis have engaged in the worst possible behavior (war crimes, blocking aid, etc.). But a durable solution won't just be DEI training for Israelis or ending benefits to ultra-orthodox families. They are going to *hate* their neighbours so long as they receive rocket barrages, terror attacks, and threats of genocide from them. That means we need a two state solution with a demilitarized Palestinian state, which is a hard pill to swallow if you're someone who thinks Israel is forever characterized by the sin of the Nakba and/or that Palestinians are the righteous and exclusive indigenous population to that land.

Demilitarization may be infeasible; Gaza used to have water ducts but Hamas made of them rockets and launched them to Israel.

However you are probably right about Israelis' feelings and fears, which is rather sad, as it probably comes to genocide when people are so afraid of one another that they kill one another. Frankly, I see only one way to avoid it:

43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
(Matthew 5)

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(Matthew 10)

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Ah yes, both sides of the conflict spontaneously become Christian and, unlike many current Christians, take love they neighbour to heart. Someone make Sloth ambassador to Israel, we finally found a peace plan that's going to work!

[Octavious]

Iran has launched aerial drones at Israel, appearing to mark a widely anticipated reprisal attack.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said his country's "defensive systems" were deployed.

"We are ready for any scenario, both defensively and offensively. The State of Israel is strong. The IDF is strong. The public is strong.

"We appreciate the US standing alongside Israel, as well as the support of Britain, France and many other countries."

Israeli TV said the Iranian attack was expected to reach Israel at 02:00 on Sunday (23:00 GMT on Saturday).

It's going to be an interesting next hour

[Jamiet99uk]

Iran has launched aerial drones at Israel, appearing to mark a widely anticipated reprisal attack.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said his country's "defensive systems" were deployed.

"We are ready for any scenario, both defensively and offensively. The State of Israel is strong. The IDF is strong. The public is strong.

"We appreciate the US standing alongside Israel, as well as the support of Britain, France and many other countries."

Israeli TV said the Iranian attack was expected to reach Israel at 02:00 on Sunday (23:00 GMT on Saturday).

It's going to be an interesting next hour

This of course is a direct response to Israel launching an attack on the Iranian embassy in Syria, killing several Iranian personnel as well as a number of Syrian civilians.

[Jamiet99uk]

But yes, very "interesting". We'll see what happens.

Disappointed but not surprised by the Western rhetoric accusing Iran of a "reckless attack", when in fact they are responding to a criminal act of Israeli aggression. Israel's assassination of senior military officers and officials of a sovereign state, while they were in a diplomatic building in a third country, is the immediate cause of these events. Israel has chosen to broaden and escalate the conflict and instability in the region.

[Octavious]

Iran and Israel have been taking shots at each other for some time. Isolating that particular attack as the reason for tonight's action seems rather bizarre. A direct and large scale attack by Iran against the Israeli homeland is a very significant escalation and calling it reckless is a massive understatement

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Really hoping this is just tit-for-tat from Iran and/or a superficial show of support for Palestinians.

A hot war between Israel and Iran would immediately involve great powers. Israel has nukes. There's a reason Iran normally takes its shots at Israel through proxies. A direct attack is the definition of reckless when you're the side that would lose in a broader conflict.

The "it's Israel's own fault" narrative is extraordinarily one-sided. Who funded the terror group behind October 7? Who funds Hezbollah? Obviously Israel has gotten spicy too, but how anyone can look at this situation and say definitively that one side started it?

Maybe you think Israel deserves to be attacked by Iran for its war crimes, but upon what moral authority does Iran get to be the nation that dish out this punishment? If that's really the way the world should work then the West should be drone attacking Iran right now for supporting terrorism, suppressing women and gays, etc.

[Jamiet99uk]

Iran and Israel have been taking shots at each other for some time. Isolating that particular attack as the reason for tonight's action seems rather bizarre. A direct and large scale attack by Iran against the Israeli homeland is a very significant escalation and calling it reckless is a massive understatement

I'm not sure how much we accurately know about the scale of the attack yet. I'm watching the live BBC reporting and they don't appear certain. Is it a dozen drones that Israel will easily shoot down? Or is it an enormous barrage of drones and missiles that will cause widespread damage and casualties?

[Jamiet99uk]

Iran and Israel have been taking shots at each other for some time. Isolating that particular attack as the reason for tonight's action seems rather bizarre. A direct and large scale attack by Iran against the Israeli homeland is a very significant escalation and calling it reckless is a massive understatement

You called it "a reprisal attack". What did you think it was a reprisal for, when you wrote that?

[Jamiet99uk]

For the sake of clarity:

I am not a supporter of the current regime in Iran, which is responsible for the violent repression of peaceful protest in its country, and which displays widespread institutional repression of the rights of women and girls, and other serious human rights violations.

I just think that Israel's decision to bomb the Iranian embassy in Damascus, at this particular time of instability and violence in the region, is the act which has prompted this response.

[Octavious]

I was quoting the BBC. Yes, clearly Iran are using the Damascus strike as justification for this. What are find surprising is that you seem to agree with them in that this is a proportionate response to that strike rather than a reckless escalation.

Time will tell. Best case scenario is that Iran have deliberately sent forth a few dozen targets for the IDF to shoot down at their leisure, in an attempt to convince their hardliners that they're taking firm action without actually doing anything. But I have to be feeling very optimistic to believe that

[Jamiet99uk]

I was quoting the BBC. Yes, clearly Iran are using the Damascus strike as justification for this. What are find surprising is that you seem to agree with them in that this is a proportionate response to that strike rather than a reckless escalation.

Frankly I would like the disgusting, chauvinistic, militaristic leaders of both countries to fuck off. I would like there to be no war. I would like humans, and in particular, senior political leaders, to emphasise the value of peace over almost all other considerations.

[CaptainFritz28]

I want world peace and the end of all wars forever, for what it's worth.

[learnedSloth]

I want world peace and the end of all wars forever, for what it's worth.

So do I, and I see only one way to it, as there will be wars at least as long as people fear one another more than God.

[Jamiet99uk]

I want world peace and the end of all wars forever, for what it's worth.

So do I, and I see only one way to it, as there will be wars at least as long as people fear one another more than God.

You think God is loving, but you think the only way to make people behave is to have them be terrified of him. Sounds pretty abusive.

[Octavious]

I have to admit that the whole God fearing philosophy is somewhat alien to me. I guess you could fear God in much the same way as you can fear the sea or a storm. It's not out to get you, but it is inherently powerful and not what you can call "safe". But I can't say I ever have.

Still, so far so good. It was a significant attack but, unless Iranian power is considerably less than we've been led to believe, not designed to inflict massive pain. We get a good demonstration of Israeli defensive capability and allied unity, which will hopefully act as a deterrent for future actions. The flag waving lunatic brigade in Iran seem to be satisfied and are celebrating (which I find genuinely mystifying, but gift horses and mouths and all that).

One thing that has become apparent, in both Israel and Ukraine, is that missiles are a lot less effective than public perception would have you believe

[Esquire Bertissimmo]

Hamas members are amongst the most God fearing people on earth lol, doesn't seem to be helping.

[CaptainFritz28]

Well, one religion is wrong, I guess they all must be!

What a silly argument lol.