War, what is it good for?

[Jamiet99uk]

The more Oct ignores me, the more evil wins.

[Jamiet99uk]

Actually to be honest, it's clear this debate is over.

Some people have decided to support justice and humanity.

Some people have decided to support ethnic cleansing, theft, murder, and Zionism.

[Jamiet99uk]

Trying to remove a people from their land is ethnic cleansing, right?

Clearly not, otherwise compulsory purchase orders to build infrastructure and evacuating residential blocks in a fire would qualify, and clearly calling either scenario ethnic cleansing is ridiculous.

To be ethnic cleansing there needs to be a certain scale, a certain duration, and it needs to be forced. Whilst I would agree that the prospect of military action is sufficient to meet the "force" requirement, I remain utterly unconvinced regarding the scale (for which clarification on the definition of "a territory" would be useful) and the duration.

How about pointing a rifle or machine gun at someone's face, and saying "abandon your home, or we will kill you" ??

Is that enough?

That is what Israel does.

Go fuck yourself, Octavious, you absolute cunt.

[Octavious]

The Palestinian ambassador to the UK made a very clear case for Hamas' victory in the 2006 election being a direct result of the failure of Israel to abide by the promises made in the Oslo peace accords. IE the PLO gave up everything, dedicated to resolving things by peaceful means, and recognised Israel's right to exist. But were then seen as weak because they gave up so much and got nothing in return - and Israel did this without a single ounce of international pressure to live up to their commitments.

He's not wrong in the sense that those factors certainly provided reasons for people to vote for Hamas. But having a reason to do something doesn't make it right, or even remotely beneficial. If I came back from work to discover my car covered in bird shit, and responded by chucking a rock at a nearby seagull, the shit would be my reason but the resulting action would be neither just nor effective. In the case of the election, Hamas were blatantly obviously evil Jew haters who were enthusiastic about putting hurting Isreal as a far higher priority than helping Palestinians. The vote for Hamas was a massive "fuck off" to peace, and a key component of making the current situation possible.

That is the great tragedy of the current situation. So many people had so many opportunities to stop it from happening. The ordinary people of Gaza could have not voted for hatred. The ordinary people of Israel could have not voted for hatred. Some of the thousands of Gazans who knew about the attack and the inevitable consequences that would follow could have taken the courageous decision to leak the information and stop it. One of the last 3 utterly useless US Presidents could have lived up to their responsibilities in the area. The EU could have finally put its fantasies about being a major diplomatic player into action.

No one did, and since the Hamas attacks it's been like watching amateur players of Diplomacy responding to a stab when it's already too late to form a statement line. The situation started off shit, it's getting shitter, and this is nothing to how shit it's going to get. And here Jamie will become increasingly deranged and shouty, regardless of the fact that no one's actually arguing with him, until he inevitably punches himself in the face

So maybe there is a long term strategy, and it is to make Hamas so dangerous that they can justify the murder of millions of Palestinians and theft of their land.

The idea that more than a handful of Israelis would ever consider a death to all Palestinians approach is too daft to give any credibility, and the only people who talk about it seriously are raving antisemites who need to take a long hard look at themselves. In case there's any doubt, I don't include you in that. Until recently I wouldn't have included anyone here in that.

However it does seem clear, especially in the recent Bibi dominated era, that Israeli policy has been specially geared towards making a 2 state solution impossible

[orathaic]

I fear that the history of the IRA in northern ireland demonstrates that it isn't possible to secure a terrorist threat by policing or military actions, and the opposite (it wasn't possoble to bomb the British government into withsrawing from northern ireland).

Thus peace talks are the only option. The question of who to talk to, and whether their words hold any weight is the difficult one (i would argue that you can't talk to Hamas at the moment, but many would have argued that there was no point in talking to the IRA, but that was exactly who the British government HAD to talk to...)

The idea that more than a handful of Israelis would ever consider a death to all Palestinians approach is too daft to give any credibility

I don't know about the details, but there is a minority within Israel who are happy to see illegal settlements continue, which is not conducive to a two state solution. What is their long term solution to the problem of Palestinians in the lands they want to settle? And they may not advocating murdering each and every Palestinian, but their removal from the land (and i suspect it will become all the land) is still not acceptable.

However it does seem clear, especially in the recent Bibi dominated era, that Israeli policy has been specially geared towards making a 2 state solution impossible

Agreed.

This is not what a majority of Israelis necessarily want, they want security, and Bibi isn't electrd by a majority of Israelis, but i am sure that many who vote for him did so in the hipes of securing peace (by whatever means). This situation has been made worse by Hamas's actions, even if it results in a loss of power in the aftermath (as someone more extreme is likely to take over from Bibi - if he is blamed for the security failures which allowed the Hamas attack).

This is the other aide of the coin to Hamas gaining power in 2006 (and they haven't held elections since). You can't blame Israelis for voting for people who promise them security, or voting out people who failed to provide them security. Just as you can't blams Palestinians for voting out people who conceeded Israel's right to exist while Israel gave nothing back.

You can entirely blame Hamas from attacking Israel, or Iraeli fudning to Hamas in the (what was it 80s or early 90s) attempt to undermine the secular PLO and the two state solution... (I am assuming that was part of the same set of beliefs that we see today from the illegal settlers in the west bank).

You can blame people for the things they control, and Israel has so much more control over this situation than the British government ever did in Nortgern Ireland (despite both situations being described as an occupation).

Northern Ireland is not perfect by any means, the failure of Stormont and the continued impass over Brexit demonstrates the deep seated mistrust (by Unionists and Republicans of each other and by Unionists of the British government) and disdai. (the British government's disdain for the people living there, who honestly deserve a government at this point, even if it means throwing out the good friday a greement and imposing joint rule from Dublin and London - a prospect which no ody really wants, or direct rule from London - which nobody really wants...).

Gaza is far worse and you don't see settlers in the West Bank acting like Unionists in Northern Ireland, planning a power sharing agreement with the PLO in ten generations...

[orathaic]

For the record, i was about to say the Hamas and the IDF are equally culpable for the current wave of violence, and that both have a right to self-defence, but neither the air strikes on civilian targets, nor the kidnapping the murder of civilians is self-defence.

And i was going to comment that Iran and the US are both culpabke for encouraging this violence by standing up and promising their support. But then i saw this:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67166863

And the US actions (shooting down missiles and drones) are not equivalent to the Iranian ones (sending drones and missiles to be used against civilian targets).

The technical capabilities of the US allow them to avoid the same level of violence which Iran has decided to engage in.

The same can not be said for the IDF and the collective punishment of Gazans (which is itself a war crime, and - unfortunately - a great recruiting tool for Hamas).

[Jamiet99uk]

It is happening exactly as I predicted.

Force people out of their homes, and then reduce their homes to rubble. Large areas of residential housing being blown up by Israel:

https://www.itv.com/news/2023-10-20/tho ... -to-rubble

A war crime in progress.

[Octavious]

Exactly as you predicted?

Israel's current strategy is to remove all people from Gaza and move them into mass graves. This is not beneficial to the people involved, it is genocide.

The residents then left, without any belongings and fled to the nearby Palestine University.
No one was killed in the strike

Gosh... It's uncanny...

[Jamiet99uk]

I told you they would have no homes to return to, because Israel planned to destroy said homes.

You mocked me and told me to fuck off.

[Octavious]

You mocked me and told me to fuck off.

Indeed, and I was wrong to do so. Because for reasons that are beyond my understanding you genuinely think that your delusional ranting on webDip is important. And in a sense it is because every minute you spend here shouting into empty space is a minute you're not spending doing actual harm in the real world.

So please fuck back in and tell us again in detail how right you are

[loowkey]

This site used to be great

[orathaic]

This site used to be great

When?

[Octavious]

Between the hours of 01:00 and 02:00 on the 31st of March 2013

[Jamiet99uk]

You mocked me and told me to fuck off.

Indeed, and I was wrong to do so. Because for reasons that are beyond my understanding you genuinely think that your delusional ranting on webDip is important. And in a sense it is because every minute you spend here shouting into empty space is a minute you're not spending doing actual harm in the real world.

So please fuck back in and tell us again in detail how right you are

I think it is important to stand up against injustice, murder, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and other things which you apparently support.

[flash2015]

I think you two need to get a room

[Octavious]

I think it is important to stand up against injustice, murder, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and other things which you apparently support.

And yet what you actually do is spread lies designed to increase hatred and bitterness. Hatred and bitterness that is making life difficult and scary for Jews across the world. The contrast between your actions and what you profess to believe in to justify your actions is huge.

[Jamiet99uk]

I have not said anything about Jews.

[Jamiet99uk]

And for the record, I have not stated anything I believe to be a lie.

[Octavious]

I have not said anything about Jews.

You're not an idiot, Jamie. You know full well that public perception of the state of Israel has a direct impact on the treatment of Jewish people across the globe. And even if you somehow didn't know it before there has been plenty of evidence over the last couple of weeks to prove it beyond doubt to anyone who has been paying even a minimal amount of attention, and you have been paying events a lot of attention.

Obviously it is not reasonable to demand that people only write pro-Isreali propaganda for the sake of minimising risk to Jews elsewhere, but it should be equally obvious that writing lies that portrays Israelis as monsters has a direct and significant negative impact on all Jewish people, and as such is clear antisemitism.

[Octavious]

And for the record, I have not stated anything I believe to be a lie.

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:10 pm
Israel's current strategy is to remove all people from Gaza and move them into mass graves. This is not beneficial to the people involved, it is genocide.

Explain how you came to the conclusion that this revolting statement is true