Political statement on homepage

[Jamiet99uk]

@New England Fire Squad:

Are you a religious person? A Christian?

Genuine question, not trolling, promise my next response will be a constructive one!

I am

Okay, second of all, here is my honest and constructive point.

How about, if we are white and aware of our relative privilege, how about we treat it in a similar way to the way a Christian might treat their original sin?

I have been told that Original Sin is very widely accepted by Christians. So, presumably, you accept that you were born a sinner. Through no specific act or fault of your own, but because of the sin committed by Adam, you were a sinful person from the moment of your birth. Right?

Try to think of your white privilege in the same way. To say that you have white privilege is not to say that you, personally, as a white person, have specifically committed horrible acts against non-white people. But, it is to say that to be born white in a country like the USA is to be born into a heritage of abuse and exploitation, to be born into a racial class whose forefathers (as a class) owned slaves, and mistreated and exploited and abused non-white people for their own gain.

Accepting this is to accept that white privilege does not imply that you are personally richer or more influential than the average non-white person in your country, just as accepting your original sin does not mean that you personally know exactly what the forbidden fruit tasted like. Just as original sin means you are born sinful irrespective of your own acts, white privilege means that to be born white in the USA is to be born into a generally privileged racial group, irrespective of your own acts.

If you believe in and accept your original sin as a Christian, presumably you will take this as a motivation to lead a good life, to do good deeds, and to generally be a better person.

Likewise, then, I implore you to accept your privilege as a white person, and take it as a motivation to understand how non-white people have suffered in your country, and to be motivated to do good by them, to understand them, to counteract your innate privilege and generally be a better person.

Does that make any sense?

[New England Fire Squad]

I recall that you're the guy who said that sad internet virgins should cut their dicks off, so please forgive me if I take your virtue signalling soap box with a grain of salt.

Okay, first of all, I genuinely have no idea what this refers to.

It refers to this. I won't post the link to your actual quote as I don't condone yours or CroakandDagger's, but here you are. https://webdiplomacy.net/contrib/phpBB3 ... .php?t=658

[New England Fire Squad]

@New England Fire Squad:

Are you a religious person? A Christian?

Genuine question, not trolling, promise my next response will be a constructive one!

I am

Okay, second of all, here is my honest and constructive point.

How about, if we are white and aware of our relative privilege, how about we treat it in a similar way to the way a Christian might treat their original sin?

I have been told that Original Sin is very widely accepted by Christians. So, presumably, you accept that you were born a sinner. Through no specific act or fault of your own, but because of the sin committed by Adam, you were a sinful person from the moment of your birth. Right?

Try to think of your white privilege in the same way. To say that you have white privilege is not to say that you, personally, as a white person, have specifically committed horrible acts against non-white people. But, it is to say that to be born white in a country like the USA is to be born into a heritage of abuse and exploitation, to be born into a racial class whose forefathers (as a class) owned slaves, and mistreated and exploited and abused non-white people for their own gain.

Accepting this is to accept that white privilege does not imply that you are personally richer or more influential than the average non-white person in your country, just as accepting your original sin does not mean that you personally know exactly what the forbidden fruit tasted like. Just as original sin means you are born sinful irrespective of your own acts, white privilege means that to be born white in the USA is to be born into a generally privileged racial group, irrespective of your own acts.

If you believe in and accept your original sin as a Christian, presumably you will take this as a motivation to lead a good life, to do good deeds, and to generally be a better person.

Likewise, then, I implore you to accept your privilege as a white person, and take it as a motivation to understand how non-white people have suffered in your country, and to be motivated to do good by them, to understand them, to counteract your innate privilege and generally be a better person.

Does that make any sense?

I should clarify that I am a traditionalist Catholic, and our definition and understanding of original sin is very different from most Protestant traditions, as I imagine you either are or familially attached to. Original sin, as defined by early Church Fathers, Aquinas, Anselm, et al is actually diametrically opposed to yours. Guilt is non-transferrable. My father's sins are not my own, and to believe as such is perhaps only accepted by the most modernist of churches. What is transferred is two-fold: 1. Death, and 2. Inclination to vice, or our fallen nature/concupiscence.

[New England Fire Squad]

@New England Fire Squad:

Are you a religious person? A Christian?

Genuine question, not trolling, promise my next response will be a constructive one!

I am

Okay, second of all, here is my honest and constructive point.

How about, if we are white and aware of our relative privilege, how about we treat it in a similar way to the way a Christian might treat their original sin?

I have been told that Original Sin is very widely accepted by Christians. So, presumably, you accept that you were born a sinner. Through no specific act or fault of your own, but because of the sin committed by Adam, you were a sinful person from the moment of your birth. Right?

Try to think of your white privilege in the same way. To say that you have white privilege is not to say that you, personally, as a white person, have specifically committed horrible acts against non-white people. But, it is to say that to be born white in a country like the USA is to be born into a heritage of abuse and exploitation, to be born into a racial class whose forefathers (as a class) owned slaves, and mistreated and exploited and abused non-white people for their own gain.

Accepting this is to accept that white privilege does not imply that you are personally richer or more influential than the average non-white person in your country, just as accepting your original sin does not mean that you personally know exactly what the forbidden fruit tasted like. Just as original sin means you are born sinful irrespective of your own acts, white privilege means that to be born white in the USA is to be born into a generally privileged racial group, irrespective of your own acts.

If you believe in and accept your original sin as a Christian, presumably you will take this as a motivation to lead a good life, to do good deeds, and to generally be a better person.

Likewise, then, I implore you to accept your privilege as a white person, and take it as a motivation to understand how non-white people have suffered in your country, and to be motivated to do good by them, to understand them, to counteract your innate privilege and generally be a better person.

Does that make any sense?

I do appreciate the politness, and will respond in kind. I also the appreciate the relgious overtones and a comparison to original sin, as I've long thought that this madness that began on college campuses had a certain evangelical flair to it, and that this doctrine of white collective guilt was becoming akin to a religion for many of its adherents.

I have not been born into a heritage of either abuse or privilege, personally. My mother's family are immigrants of a peasant stock that arrived in the 1960's. My father's family lived in the ghetto from the 1850's until the 1950's, when my grandfather took a chance to get out by going into the military. To say that I grew up with 'privilege' afforded to me due to my race in a non-white neighborhood is ridiculous. That said, as this spector of racism is 'systemic', I do understand that my personal family life is perhaps not average.

To reply to the idea of 'systemic racism' or 'white privilege', why yes, those things did exist in the past. The end of any sort of systemic racism died (at least in the USA) in 1964 when the federal government mandated that any and all laws allowing for discrimination were to be struck down. These laws were then enforced, sometimes by the point of a gun if necessary, and rightly so. Since minorities had been discriminated against, the government instituted affirmative actions hiring polices, school admission policies, busing, and hate laws to try and right historical wrongs by giving minorities preferential treatment in regards to educational and occupational opportunities. To me, this seems as though there is no current such thing as 'systemic racism', as the last time it legally existed was almost a lifetime ago. This concept is even more ludicrous to me when talking about slavery, as slavery ended in 1865 (two lifetimes ago) and exists nowhere in the USA or the West at large today, so the last time a white man abused a black man for profit was before my great-great-grandfather existed, whereas I do have much more recent relatives who were captured and sold into bondage (presumably, they were taken and never heard from again) by the Ottoman Empire.

However, because I imagine your definition of 'systemic racism' is nebulous and shadowy as it has to be to make any sense, I recognize that to you 'systemic racism' means that whites, collectively and yet each essentially doing it on their own, decided to discriminate against non-whites and give preferential treatment to whites. This both impossible to disprove and yet is also completely unprovable, which is why the tale so easily spreads.

Obviously, bigots exist. When I lived in a non-white neighborhood, I had to deal with plenty of it directed at myself as the only white man on the block. I know it happens to all people of all different colors and creeds, and I wish it didn't, but humans are fallen by nature with an inclination to vice (not just whites). However the fact remains that in the USA, bigots as a reality do not have any political or systemic power to put bigotry into law. Am I to feel personally ashamed of my skin color and heritage because of a cruel and callous man who shares my skin tone 3,000 miles away from me who is now locked up on murder charges? Absolutely not, and I'm thankful that less than a majority are insane enough to say so (yet). If and when that day comes, it may be time for my family to return back where we came from. Maybe things will be better when we're gone. Then again, maybe not.

[New England Fire Squad]

I am

Okay, second of all, here is my honest and constructive point.

How about, if we are white and aware of our relative privilege, how about we treat it in a similar way to the way a Christian might treat their original sin?

I have been told that Original Sin is very widely accepted by Christians. So, presumably, you accept that you were born a sinner. Through no specific act or fault of your own, but because of the sin committed by Adam, you were a sinful person from the moment of your birth. Right?

Try to think of your white privilege in the same way. To say that you have white privilege is not to say that you, personally, as a white person, have specifically committed horrible acts against non-white people. But, it is to say that to be born white in a country like the USA is to be born into a heritage of abuse and exploitation, to be born into a racial class whose forefathers (as a class) owned slaves, and mistreated and exploited and abused non-white people for their own gain.

Accepting this is to accept that white privilege does not imply that you are personally richer or more influential than the average non-white person in your country, just as accepting your original sin does not mean that you personally know exactly what the forbidden fruit tasted like. Just as original sin means you are born sinful irrespective of your own acts, white privilege means that to be born white in the USA is to be born into a generally privileged racial group, irrespective of your own acts.

If you believe in and accept your original sin as a Christian, presumably you will take this as a motivation to lead a good life, to do good deeds, and to generally be a better person.

Likewise, then, I implore you to accept your privilege as a white person, and take it as a motivation to understand how non-white people have suffered in your country, and to be motivated to do good by them, to understand them, to counteract your innate privilege and generally be a better person.

Does that make any sense?

I do appreciate the politness, and will respond in kind. I also the appreciate the relgious overtones and a comparison to original sin, as I've long thought that this madness that began on college campuses had a certain evangelical flair to it, and that this doctrine of white collective guilt was becoming akin to a religion for many of its adherents.

I have not been born into a heritage of either abuse or privilege, personally. My mother's family are immigrants of a peasant stock that arrived in the 1960's. My father's family lived in the ghetto from the 1850's until the 1950's, when my grandfather took a chance to get out by going into the military. To say that I grew up with 'privilege' afforded to me due to my race in a non-white neighborhood is ridiculous. That said, as this spector of racism is 'systemic', I do understand that my personal family life is perhaps not average.

To reply to the idea of 'systemic racism' or 'white privilege', why yes, those things did exist in the past. The end of any sort of systemic racism died (at least in the USA) in 1964 when the federal government mandated that any and all laws allowing for discrimination were to be struck down. These laws were then enforced, sometimes by the point of a gun if necessary, and rightly so. Since minorities had been discriminated against, the government instituted affirmative actions hiring polices, school admission policies, busing, and hate laws to try and right historical wrongs by giving minorities preferential treatment in regards to educational and occupational opportunities, as well as making attacks against punished to a higher degree than an identical attack without discriminatory overtones. To me, this seems as though there is no current such thing as 'systemic racism', as the last time it legally existed was almost a lifetime ago. This concept is even more ludicrous to me when talking about slavery, as slavery ended in 1865 (two lifetimes ago) and exists nowhere in the USA or the West at large today, so the last time a white man abused a black man for profit was before my great-great-grandfather existed, whereas I do have much more recent relatives who were captured and sold into bondage (presumably, they were taken and never heard from again) by the Ottoman Empire.

However, because I imagine your definition of 'systemic racism' is nebulous and shadowy as it has to be to make any sense, I recognize that to you 'systemic racism' means that whites, collectively and yet each essentially doing it on their own, decided to discriminate against non-whites and give preferential treatment to whites. This both impossible to disprove and yet is also completely unprovable, which is why the tale so easily spreads.

Obviously, bigots exist. When I lived in a non-white neighborhood, I had to deal with plenty of it directed at myself as the only white man on the block. I know it happens to all people of all different colors and creeds, and I wish it didn't, but humans are fallen by nature with an inclination to vice (not just whites). However the fact remains that in the USA, bigots as a reality do not have any political or systemic power to put bigotry into law. Am I to feel personally ashamed of my skin color and heritage because of a cruel and callous man who shares my skin tone 3,000 miles away from me who is now locked up on murder charges? Absolutely not, and I'm thankful that less than a majority are insane enough to say so (yet). If and when that day comes, it may be time for my family to return back where we came from. Maybe things will be better when we're gone. Then again, maybe not.

[New England Fire Squad]

*whoops double post

[Muscovy_Duck]

I deplore the fact that webdip has a blatently political statement emblazoned across its header.

I find it particularly strange that only state-sactioned violence and racism are condemned. So presumably individuals can carry on with their arbitrary violence and racism with impunity!

[Jamiet99uk]

I deplore the fact that webdip has a blatently political statement emblazoned across its header.

I find it particularly strange that only state-sactioned violence and racism are condemned. So presumably individuals can carry on with their arbitrary violence and racism with impunity!

All violence matters.

[MajorMitchell]

..so the last time a white man abused a black man for profit was back before was before my great grandfather existed...
So the inequity in wages between black and whites so that employers could accrue greater profits ended before your great grandfather existed?
What a Pollyanna like delusion.

[Randomizer]

..so the last time a white man abused a black man for profit was back before was before my great grandfather existed...
So the inequity in wages between black and whites so that employers could accrue greater profits ended before your great grandfather existed?
What a Pollyanna like delusion.

You've never looked at modern wage differences between white and black employees? It's even greater if you look at female employees. Part of the problem is promotions for decades went to white males so there isn't a large number of others that can get higher wages because they lack qualifications.

https://www.epi.org/blog/black-workers- ... ince-2000/

[Jamiet99uk]

..so the last time a white man abused a black man for profit was back before was before my great grandfather existed...
So the inequity in wages between black and whites so that employers could accrue greater profits ended before your great grandfather existed?
What a Pollyanna like delusion.

You've never looked at modern wage differences between white and black employees? It's even greater if you look at female employees. Part of the problem is promotions for decades went to white males so there isn't a large number of others that can get higher wages because they lack qualifications.

https://www.epi.org/blog/black-workers- ... ince-2000/

Randomizer, read the last few posts again.

MajorMitchell is on your side. He is ridiculing the post(s) above.

You really have no understanding of nuance or tone.

[Randomizer]

I am almost tone deaf. It's why I had so much trouble learning to speak a foreign language.

[New England Fire Squad]

..so the last time a white man abused a black man for profit was back before was before my great grandfather existed...
So the inequity in wages between black and whites so that employers could accrue greater profits ended before your great grandfather existed?
What a Pollyanna like delusion.

In reference to slavery. You gotta love when someone lifts a line out of what you wrote and starts reeeeeing about it out of context. If you are talking about sharecropping, that happened to everyone. If you are talking about working conditions at the turn of the 19th century, that happened to everyone. If you are talking about the modern gap, I don't control what field people decide to go into, what they study in college, their personalities, where they live in the country -like the American South, where a majority? of African Americans live, has the lowest wages overall (and before you scream racism! it also has the lowest cost of living)- or anything else. Comparing overall wages is utterly simplistic and foolish. No study ever shows what different wages make for the same job at the same firm with the same level of experience, and you know why? Because it'd be entirely illegal to just randomly give more money to whites unless there was a rational reason for it. Even in your simplistic and ridiculous measure, asians outearn whites in the US. Should I be screaming that I'm abused? Of course not. If your argument and insults refer to individual people being bigots, well re read my comment. I'm arguing against 'systemic racism' and 'white privilege' not 'random guy somewhere is a dick'.

[MajorMitchell]

Should I have put
WHAT A POLLYANNA LIKE DELUSION
in caps Dipbro Jamiet99uk & Randomiser???

Educational opportunities, employment opportunities & remuneration are all things in which discrimination based on race, sex & sexuality & religion occurs in our Bwave New World of the 21st century. Slavery still exists.

Readers who have read enough of my posts should have a reasonable understanding of my views on racism, it's existence in Australia and globally and that the noble, enlightened task for us all is to fight for all People's human rights.

If Omnipotent Zultar's & Almost Omnipotent Kestas & the Almighty Mods want to have the banner that we currently have then as far as I'm concerned they are perfectly entitled to put up the banner.

It's not offensive in any way imho.
I also agree with its message and support it.

[Octavious]

You support the dismantling of capitalism, abolishing prisons and the police, want zero immigration controls, and believe that big charities are nothing more than colonisers of the 21st century, Major?

I had no idea you held such extreme political views.

[Jamiet99uk]

Well, the banner is now gone.

[Octavious]

So it has. Is that a permanent thing or does it just come off briefly when they change the rest of the message?

[Jamiet99uk]

I do not know.

[Octavious]

We'll find out soon enough, I guess.

If it is a permanent change, what are your thoughts on its removal?

[Octavious]

My bet is it comes back up