Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

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Baskineli
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#81 Post by Baskineli » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:52 pm

Telamor wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:48 pm
How would you define who is and is not a Jew? Because as far as I can see using ethnicity rather than citizenship as the defining quality of right to self determination you are creating an ethnic hierarchy that devalues those not of your choice ethnicity.

It doesn't matter how I define Jewish (there is no single definition acceptable by all), because being a Jewish citizen in Israel does not give you any additional rights and being a Druze citizen in Israel does not take from you any rights. ALL CITIZENS are equal.

It is a Jewish state, so Saturday is the rest day, while Sunday is a normal work day. This is the meaning of Jewish state. However, every non-Jewish citizen may choose the rest day according to his religion and discrimination based on ethnicity is forbidden by law.

It matters if you are a Druze or a Jew that lives in the US and DOES NOT HAVE an Israeli citizenship. A jew may apply to become Israeli citizen on being a jewish base. A druze cannot apply to become Israeli citizen on being a druze base (there are other bases). This is the meaning of Jewish (or Japanese) state.
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Randomizer
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#82 Post by Randomizer » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:11 pm

Being a Jew is a religion not an ethnicity.

You don't call being a Christian an ethnicity? You wouldn't call Catholics in the
Vatican City an ethnic group. If the Muslim population in the Vatican increased due to refugees from Africa, would you demand that some cathedrals be converted to mosques?

Stressedlines
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#83 Post by Stressedlines » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:27 am

Radom has a point, somewhat. There is such a thing as Jewish DNA, but the problem lies in the fact that there is also Jews who converted, and thus dont have that DNA

If you doubt me, go to any OB/GYN in the country, and take that T21 test for your baby to test for abnormalities. There is a few boxes you can check One of them is very clearly Ashkenazi jew

Also listed is African American (for sickle cell)
Ds
and a few others I cant remember, but the tests are VERY clearly identifying genetic markers of specific groups
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Baskineli
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#84 Post by Baskineli » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:45 am

Randomizer wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:11 pm
Being a Jew is a religion not an ethnicity.

You don't call being a Christian an ethnicity? You wouldn't call Catholics in the
Vatican City an ethnic group. If the Muslim population in the Vatican increased due to refugees from Africa, would you demand that some cathedrals be converted to mosques?
This is wrong. I am a secular jew. I don't believe in God. Am I not a jew if I am not religious?

The same word, "jew", describes two different things. One thing is a religious affinity, the other is nationality.
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Baskineli
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#85 Post by Baskineli » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:37 am

Stressedlines wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:27 am
Radom has a point, somewhat. There is such a thing as Jewish DNA, but the problem lies in the fact that there is also Jews who converted, and thus dont have that DNA

If you doubt me, go to any OB/GYN in the country, and take that T21 test for your baby to test for abnormalities. There is a few boxes you can check One of them is very clearly Ashkenazi jew

Also listed is African American (for sickle cell)
Ds
and a few others I cant remember, but the tests are VERY clearly identifying genetic markers of specific groups
No, he is wrong.

An arab who believes in Jesus is christian arab.
An arab who believes in Allah is muslim arab.
An arab who believes in jewish god is jewish arab (not much of them).

About converted jews - they convert into religion, not into ethnicity. You cannot change your genes.

Telamor
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#86 Post by Telamor » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:03 pm

Baskineli can correct me if I'm wrong but I think converts abroad aren't eligible for Israeli citizenship. You have to be ethnically Jewish.

Baskineli
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#87 Post by Baskineli » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:33 pm

Telamor wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:03 pm
Baskineli can correct me if I'm wrong but I think converts abroad aren't eligible for Israeli citizenship. You have to be ethnically Jewish.
Frankly, I don't know.

Not a lot of people convert to Judaism. The ones who do, usually convert because of a spouse, and then they can gain citizenship because they are married to a citizen.

Randomizer
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#88 Post by Randomizer » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:43 pm

Baskineli wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:45 am
This is wrong. I am a secular jew. I don't believe in God. Am I not a jew if I am not religious?

The same word, "jew", describes two different things. One thing is a religious affinity, the other is nationality.
For those who are born a Jew, unless you formally convert to another religion, you are still a Jew. Being a secular Jew means not being observant about some religious aspects.

Legally in Israel you are still considered a Jew by birth. Nationality is your legal citizenship. It has nothing to do with your religion unless you are applying for citizenship from outside Israel where it's a condition for getting it automatically.

Some other countries have similar provisions, for instance Ireland does it for descendants of Ireland returning there that are citizens of other countries.


Jewish converts can become citizens as regular Jews if they meet the legal standard on how they were converted. The Orthodox religious parties got that enacted as a condition of supporting coalition governments back in the early days.
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Stressedlines
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Re: Israel declares that only Jews have a right to self determination in Israel

#89 Post by Stressedlines » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:42 pm

Judaism conversion numbers are reallllly low. I was speaking in a more general.sense. since medical reports break them out for fenetic tests i am going to assume this is a good indicator that they are mostly i habing the same general genepool

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