MAFIA XXXIX - SIGN UPS

[Vecna]

This setup seems extremely scumsided

What makes you say that? It has been run before, and the result was very close.

Wasnt the result very close because mostly because scum played abysmal and was hard bussing eachother?. We lynched scum back to back, 4 days in a row, and town still couldnt win or something like that?

18:6 is generally on the verge of being scumsided already. Add on top of that that the scum PRs are much stronger in general, guns can be given to scum, trackers and watchers generally are very mediocre investigatives at best, AND can be redirected in this setup to cause fake guilties, or worse fake inno's.......

But then again, im forgetting what the inventor and the scum doctor were doing, so maybe im seeing things. Given equal distribution of good players, id expect scum to win this setup every time.

[Vecna]

1. Brainbomb
2. Durga
3. Squigs44
4. Tom Bomb
5. rdrivera2005
6. MoscowFleet
7. worcej
8. xorxes
9. nd
10. bozo
11. Chaqa
12. Vecna
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.

Substitutes:

A. yav
B.
C.

Anyways, ill play regardless. Maybe I get to roll scum and abuse me some stagecoach.

[Vecna]

(Ill already state upfront ill have a period of much less activity between september 12-17)

[damo666]

With Squigs and rdrivera in I feel obliged. Add me please.

[Jamiet99uk]

This setup seems extremely scumsided

What makes you say that? It has been run before, and the result was very close.

Wasnt the result very close because mostly because scum played abysmal and was hard bussing eachother?. We lynched scum back to back, 4 days in a row, and town still couldnt win or something like that?

18:6 is generally on the verge of being scumsided already. Add on top of that that the scum PRs are much stronger in general, guns can be given to scum, trackers and watchers generally are very mediocre investigatives at best, AND can be redirected in this setup to cause fake guilties, or worse fake inno's.......

But then again, im forgetting what the inventor and the scum doctor were doing, so maybe im seeing things. Given equal distribution of good players, id expect scum to win this setup every time.

Thank you for your comments Vecna. I appreciate them.

There isn't an Inventor in this setup so I'm not sure what you mean about an Inventor. Do you mean the Gambler?

Do any other experienced Mafia players share Vecna's concerns about the balance of this setup? Amusingly I clearly recall both Durga and Bo_Sox complaining last time that it was town-sided.

I'd rather debate this now, and make tweaks, than have people moaning after the game starts.

I will post the full role PMs so those can be considered.

[Jamiet99uk]

TOWN ROLES

VANILLA TOWNSPERSON
You are a VANILLA TOWNSPERSON. Each day you must vote for a suspect. You win when all of the Mafia have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.
 
TRACKER
You are the TRACKER. Each day you must vote for a suspect. Each night, you may visit a player by PM-ing both GMs with the order ##TRACK <NAME>. Your target will not be aware of your visit. At the end of the night, you will learn who that player visited (if anyone). You win when all of the Mafia have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.
 
WATCHER
You are the WATCHER. Each day you must vote for a suspect. Each night, you may visit a player's house, shack, tent or whatever, by PM-ing both GMs with the order ##WATCH <NAME>. Your target will not be aware of your visit. At the end of the night, you will learn who that player was visited by (if anyone). You win when all of the Mafia have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.
 
DOCTOR
You are the DOCTOR. Each day you must vote for a suspect. Each night, you may visit a player by PM-ing both GMs with the order ##SAVE <NAME>. At the end of the night, if they have been targeted by the mafia nightkill, or if they are shot during the night, you will save their life. You will know if you successfully perfomed a save. Your target will learn of your visit ONLY if you save them. You may not visit the same player on consecutive nights. You win when all of the Mafia have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.

GAMBLER
You are the GAMBLER! Each day you must vote for a suspect. Each night, you may place a bet on who will by lynched the next day. If you win your bet, you win one item from the list below (determined at random). Each item is a one-use item. Once all of the items are used up, you stop gambling. You receive the item at the start of the night phase. You win when all of the Mafia have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.

GAMBLER'S ITEMS
- Shotgun (one shot kill)
- First aid kit (one use doctor save, used up even if target is not attacked)
- Whisky (one shot roleblock)
- Railroad ticket (one-use commute, immune to all actions whilst commuting, cannot gamble on the night you commute)
- Bulletproof vest (vest that protects against one shot, donned immediately)
(All items are night-use)

GUNSMITH
You are the GUNSMITH. Each day you must vote for a suspect. You start the game with three guns. Each night, for up to three total nights, you may visit one player by PM-ing both GMs with the order ##GUN <NAME>, and give them a gun. Shots fired at night adjudicate at EoN. Shots fired during the day adjudicate as soon as the GM receives (and is able to process) the order. You win when all of the Mafia have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.
 
 
MAFIA ROLES
 
STAGECOACH DRIVER
You are the DRIVER. Each day you must vote for a suspect. THREE times per game, at night, you may visit two living players by PM-ing both GMs with the order ##DRIVE <NAME> and <NAME>. Any person who attempts to visit one of those people will visit the other chosen person instead. At night you can talk to the other Mafia in the Mafia QT at <LINK>. You win when all of the Town have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.
 
HOOKER
You are the HOOKER. Each day you must vote for a suspect. Each night, you may visit another player by PM-ing both GMs with the order ##ROLEBLOCK <NAME>. If that player attempts any night actions, they will fail. They will learn that they were roleblocked. At night you can talk to the other Mafia in the Mafia QT at <LINK>. You win when all of the Town have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.
 
STRONGMAN
You are the STRONGMAN. Each day you must vote for a suspect. Once per game, at night, you may choose to strong-arm the Mafia's night kill by PM-ing both GMs with the order ##STRONGARM. When this is done, the nightkill cannot be prevented by the Doctor or any other action that would protect or save the target. At night you can talk to the other Mafia in the Mafia QT at <LINK>. You win when all of the Town have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.
 
TOUGH GUY
You are the TOUGH GUY. Each day you must vote for a suspect. You are immune from one gunshot. The first gunshot that targets you will fail automatically. At night you can talk to the other Mafia in the Mafia QT at <LINK>. You win when all of the Town have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.
 
QUACK DOCTOR
You are the QUACK DOCTOR. Each day you must vote for a suspect. TWICE per game, at night, you may visit another player by PM-ing both GMs with the order ##VISIT <NAME>. They will recieve a message telling them they were saved by the Doctor. At night you can talk to the other Mafia in the Mafia QT at <LINK>. You win when all of the Town have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.

MAFIA GOON
You are the MAFIA GOON. Each day you must vote for a suspect. At night you can talk to the other Mafia in the Mafia QT at <LINK>. You have no other powers. You win when all of the Town have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.

[Jamiet99uk]

1. Brainbomb
2. Durga
3. Squigs44
4. Tom Bomb
5. rdrivera2005
6. MoscowFleet
7. worcej
8. xorxes
9. nd
10. bozo
11. Chaqa
12. Vecna
13. Damo666
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.

Substitutes:

A. yav
B.
C.

[Jamiet99uk]

Please do read Vecna's comments above and let me know if you have any concerns.

[Foxcastle]

I'm sad to not be playing, but here are my thoughts anyway.

The way M33 played out had little to do with mechanical or set up issues, and I'm not sure you can make judgements on the setup based on that game. I think Town's early lead was more about the Mafia team playing pretty scummily, and the scumteam coming back to win wasn't based on any mechanical or structural advantage. Also, there were major participation problems, with both teams having replacements, and two townies getting mod-killed for inactivity (which put the game at LyLo a day early).

That said, I think it could be close to being scumsided, mostly for having a big scum team. Watcher+Tracker is a good advantage for Town, but Town's PRs are already making a lot of visits (from the Doctor, Gunsmith, and potentially Gambler, as well), and if scum play conservatively with their PRs, Town could mostly end up tracking/watching Town. I tend to think guns kill townies, so 4 guns doesn't seem like a Town advantage. I do recall that in M33, the Gambler drove several Town lynches because he was outed early and Town started chasing his items, which helped the Mafia; that's not inherently a structural disadvantage (it was poor play by Town), but I think that role has incentive to chase items rather than hunt scum, and the items themselves aren't a big enough help to Town to make up for the distraction.

[worcej]

Noob’s thoughts on the setup upon reading: it does seem like the Gambler is pretty weak as a PR because the likelihood of him getting items is very low. I am not sure what I would replace the role with or how I would tweak it to be stronger.

And a western themed mafia with no Sheriff/Cop? Seems kinda off lol, but I can imagine a Cop/Tracker/Watcher combo would be nasty for scum to deal with.

[Jamiet99uk]

Having taken Vecna's comments on board, Bo_Sox and I have decided to modify the setup to slightly weaken the Scum team, as follows:

1. There will be no STRONGMAN - instead an additional Mafia Goon.
2. The STAGECOACH DRIVER will have 2x uses, not 3x.

Note that first time around, this was a limited-reveal game, with specific roles not disclosed on flip. This did, in hindsight, make the Watcher and Tracker very weak. This time roles will flip as normal. This makes the Watcher and Tracker more useful to town if they can stay alive until later in the game.

As for the Gambler, well, yes, that's supposed to be a moderately weak PR, still better than a VT and with the potential to get some fun items.

[Jamiet99uk]

===================================
MAFIA 39 SETUP INFORMATION UPDATED
=================================== 

Theme: It is 1884. Just a year before, the settlement of Zultar's Gulch had been a one-horse town, a mere speck on the map of the Idaho territory. The chance discovery of gold in them thar hills changed all that, as prospectors, chancers, and hangers-on rushed to the suddenly-expanding town in search of the precious metal.

Among the new arrivals are the Jessop Gang, a bunch of no-good, low-down varmints who'd sell their own mother for a quick dollar. Disguised as fellow prospectors, they plan to do away with the local authorities and any other claimants, and take for themselves the riches that lie beneath these here hills.

Can the townsfolk root out the bad guys? Or will the Jessop Gang prevail? Find out in MAFIA XXXIX - Return to the West!

Roles:
 
24 Players
 
18 Town:
 
13 Vanilla Town
1 Tracker
1 Watcher
1 Doctor
1 Gambler
1 Gunsmith
 
6 Mafia:
 
1 Hooker
1 Tough Guy (one-save)
1 Stagecoach Driver (two uses)
1 Quack Doctor (two uses)
2 Mafia Goons
 


TOWN ROLES

VANILLA TOWNSPERSON
You are a VANILLA TOWNSPERSON. Each day you must vote for a suspect. You win when all of the Mafia have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.
 
TRACKER
You are the TRACKER. Each day you must vote for a suspect. Each night, you may visit a player by PM-ing both GMs with the order ##TRACK <NAME>. Your target will not be aware of your visit. At the end of the night, you will learn who that player visited (if anyone). You win when all of the Mafia have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.
 
WATCHER
You are the WATCHER. Each day you must vote for a suspect. Each night, you may visit a player's house, shack, tent or whatever, by PM-ing both GMs with the order ##WATCH <NAME>. Your target will not be aware of your visit. At the end of the night, you will learn who that player was visited by (if anyone). You win when all of the Mafia have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.
 
DOCTOR
You are the DOCTOR. Each day you must vote for a suspect. Each night, you may visit a player by PM-ing both GMs with the order ##SAVE <NAME>. At the end of the night, if they have been targeted by the mafia nightkill, or if they are shot during the night, you will save their life. You will know if you successfully perfomed a save. Your target will learn of your visit ONLY if you save them. You may not visit the same player on consecutive nights. You win when all of the Mafia have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.

GAMBLER
You are the GAMBLER! Each day you must vote for a suspect. Each night, you may place a bet on who will by lynched the next day. If you win your bet, you win one item from the list below (determined at random). Each item is a one-use item. Once all of the items are used up, you stop gambling. You receive the item at the start of the night phase. You win when all of the Mafia have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.

GAMBLER'S ITEMS
- Shotgun (one shot kill)
- First aid kit (one use doctor save, used up even if target is not attacked)
- Whisky (one shot roleblock)
- Railroad ticket (one-use commute, immune to all actions whilst commuting, cannot gamble on the night you commute)
- Bulletproof vest (vest that protects against one shot, donned immediately)
(All items are night-use)

GUNSMITH
You are the GUNSMITH. Each day you must vote for a suspect. You start the game with three guns. Each night, for up to three total nights, you may visit one player by PM-ing both GMs with the order ##GUN <NAME>, and give them a gun. Shots fired at night adjudicate at EoN. Shots fired during the day adjudicate as soon as the GM receives (and is able to process) the order. You win when all of the Mafia have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.
 
 
MAFIA ROLES
 
STAGECOACH DRIVER
You are the DRIVER. Each day you must vote for a suspect. TWICE per game, at night, you may visit two living players by PM-ing both GMs with the order ##DRIVE <NAME> and <NAME>. Any person who attempts to visit one of those people will visit the other chosen person instead. At night you can talk to the other Mafia in the Mafia QT at <LINK>. You win when all of the Town have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.
 
HOOKER
You are the HOOKER. Each day you must vote for a suspect. Each night, you may visit another player by PM-ing both GMs with the order ##ROLEBLOCK <NAME>. If that player attempts any night actions, they will fail. They will learn that they were roleblocked. At night you can talk to the other Mafia in the Mafia QT at <LINK>. You win when all of the Town have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.

TOUGH GUY
You are the TOUGH GUY. Each day you must vote for a suspect. You are immune from one gunshot. The first gunshot that targets you will fail automatically. At night you can talk to the other Mafia in the Mafia QT at <LINK>. You win when all of the Town have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.
 
QUACK DOCTOR
You are the QUACK DOCTOR. Each day you must vote for a suspect. TWICE per game, at night, you may visit another player by PM-ing both GMs with the order ##VISIT <NAME>. They will recieve a message telling them they were saved by the Doctor. At night you can talk to the other Mafia in the Mafia QT at <LINK>. You win when all of the Town have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.

MAFIA GOON
You are a MAFIA GOON. Each day you must vote for a suspect. At night you can talk to the other Mafia in the Mafia QT at <LINK>. You have no other powers. You win when all of the Town have been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from happening.
 
--- 
ROLE INTERACTIONS
 
Doctor / Driver:
If the Doctor visits one of the Driver's targets, they will "save" the other.
If the Doctor is visited by the Driver, this has no effect on the "save".
 
Gunsmith / Driver:
If Gunsmith's target has been switched, the new target receives the gun.
 
Gunsmith / Hooker:
Players roleblocked by the Hooker will still receive the gunsmith's gun at the end of the night.
 
Tracker / Driver:
If targeting the Driver, tracker will see the two players the Driver visits.
If the tracker's target has been switched, they will "track" the new target.
 
Tracker / Hooker:
If targeting the Hooker, tracker will see the Hooker visit their RB target.
 
Watcher / Driver:
If targeting the Driver, watcher will see nothing as a result of the Driver's action.
If the watcher's target has been switched, they will "watch" the new target.
 
Watcher / Hooker:
If targeting the Hooker, Watcher will see nothing as a result of the Hooker's action.
If targeting the Hooker's target, they will see the Hooker visit.
 
Driver / Mafia NK:
If for some reason the Driver switches the Mafia NK target, the Mafia will NK the other person.

Tracker / Watcher:
The Watcher's action *is* a visit and the Tracker will therefore track them.

ORDER OF NIGHT ACTIONS:

1. Gambler boards train
2. Hooker roleblocks / Gambler uses whisky (simultaneous)
3. Watcher starts watching / Tracker starts tracking / Driver drives (all simultaneous)
4. Gunsmith delivers
5. Mafia kill / Gambler fires shotgun (simultaneous) / All other night gunshots
6. Doctor saves / Quack Doctor Visits / Gambler first aids
7. Gambler bets.

[brainbomb]

Noob’s thoughts on the setup upon reading: it does seem like the Gambler is pretty weak as a PR because the likelihood of him getting items is very low. I am not sure what I would replace the role with or how I would tweak it to be stronger.

And a western themed mafia with no Sheriff/Cop? Seems kinda off lol, but I can imagine a Cop/Tracker/Watcher combo would be nasty for scum to deal with.

Actually the gambler was the most fun part of M33. Snowy did a pretty great job of claiming it and using his skills to guess what the lynches would be. He was highly effective in his role. It was gunsmith who gunned scum two times or caused multiple town deaths that game.

[Jamiet99uk]

FWIW, there is a Sheriff in the flavour, it's just not a role that anyone can draw.

[Squigs44]

Town has won the last two games, so a slightly more scumsided setup might not be a bad idea. Besides, we all know I'm going to role town again, and I could use a loss. My only loss was M3.5 which was technically a loss for all three parties.

[DrCJG]

Didn't read back to see when the estimated start date was, I'm slammed at work and have a long weekend vacation Sept 8... so I'll put myself on the sub list for now but depending on the start date and how work shapes up this week I may be able to play...

1. Brainbomb
2. Durga
3. Squigs44
4. Tom Bomb
5. rdrivera2005
6. MoscowFleet
7. worcej
8. xorxes
9. nd
10. bozo
11. Chaqa
12. Vecna
13. Damo666
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.

Substitutes:

A. yav
B. DrCJG
C.

[ghug]

Town has won the last two games, so a slightly more scumsided setup might not be a bad idea. Besides, we all know I'm going to role town again, and I could use a loss. My only loss was M3.5 which was technically a loss for all three parties.

We won M3.5. I think it was 4 and 5 that were broken.

[ghug]

Wow, bozo overwrote me. Voting him first.

1. Brainbomb
2. Durga
3. Squigs44
4. Tom Bomb
5. rdrivera2005
6. MoscowFleet
7. worcej
8. xorxes
9. nd
10. bozo
11. Chaqa
12. Vecna
13. Damo666
14. ghug
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.

[DemonRHK]

1. Brainbomb
2. Durga
3. Squigs44
4. Tom Bomb
5. rdrivera2005
6. MoscowFleet
7. worcej
8. xorxes
9. nd
10. bozo
11. Chaqa
12. Vecna
13. Damo666
14. ghug
15. DemonRHK
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.

[Squigs44]

Town has won the last two games, so a slightly more scumsided setup might not be a bad idea. Besides, we all know I'm going to role town again, and I could use a loss. My only loss was M3.5 which was technically a loss for all three parties.

We won M3.5. I think it was 4 and 5 that were broken.

You're right, it was M4 not M3.5. My memory around those games is somewhat suppressed due to some traumatic interactions.