MAFIA 64 - The Z Files - Game Thread [HIDDEN]

[Hellenic Riot]

So you had an opinion on whether or not claiming discards is helpful to town, but you chose not to share it when that topic was a large part of the discussion? Doesn't feel like town!HR to me.

It had already begun, there was no point discussing it further by that point. Mech-talk is just a cheap & easy way to score townpoints without adding anything to the discussion.

Nah I don't believe this. I think you'd push for whatever side you think is right. The way you're talking about this now makes it seem like you were more interested in how you look than town doing the right thing. Very scummy

If you can come up with a way for people to undo their discard claims after half the people in the game have done it then I'm all ears. Until then I'll go back to asking you why you only opposed it early on and not later but are attacking me for not opposing it later.

[Hellenic Riot]

It had already begun, there was no point discussing it further by that point. Mech-talk is just a cheap & easy way to score townpoints without adding anything to the discussion.

Furthermore I think this is a super disingenuous take given that you opposed the discard outing initially but then moved on and didn't comment at all when it was going on later

I have been very upfront about not having an opinion on whether sharing or not sharing is better for town. If more people that I trust (would have included you, D1) had supported it, I would probably have outed. But I've never claimed to know which is mechanically better. You know I don't care about mechanics.

There's not a lot of point of a handful of people not doing it. It's like a massclaim - You can't resist it after the horse has already bolted.

[kgray]

It had already begun, there was no point discussing it further by that point. Mech-talk is just a cheap & easy way to score townpoints without adding anything to the discussion.

Nah I don't believe this. I think you'd push for whatever side you think is right. The way you're talking about this now makes it seem like you were more interested in how you look than town doing the right thing. Very scummy

If you can come up with a way for people to undo their discard claims after half the people in the game have done it then I'm all ears. Until then I'll go back to asking you why you only opposed it early on and not later but are attacking me for not opposing it later.

What are you talking about? Literally the reason I opposed it was *because* it can't be undone. I can't control whether other people claim or not, and I wasn't saying nobody should claim. I was saying I wasn't going to unless there was a consensus that it was the right thing to do.

You apparently always thinking we shouldn't claim is very different. And you could have said at any point that claiming isn't helpful, regardless of how many people had already done it.

[ghug]

Why did he/she/it not claim?

Dude, just say "they"

Yeah, should have. Sorry. Pissed and frustrated.

Heh, this sounds very redundant in American English.

[kgray]

Furthermore I think this is a super disingenuous take given that you opposed the discard outing initially but then moved on and didn't comment at all when it was going on later

I have been very upfront about not having an opinion on whether sharing or not sharing is better for town. If more people that I trust (would have included you, D1) had supported it, I would probably have outed. But I've never claimed to know which is mechanically better. You know I don't care about mechanics.

There's not a lot of point of a handful of people not doing it. It's like a massclaim - You can't resist it after the horse has already bolted.

No, because there is no way of knowing what cards were dealt, let alone discarded. So there's still ambiguity for the people who didn't claim, and if you think/thought that claiming only helped scum then you could have said that at any point.

[Hellenic Riot]

Nah I don't believe this. I think you'd push for whatever side you think is right. The way you're talking about this now makes it seem like you were more interested in how you look than town doing the right thing. Very scummy

If you can come up with a way for people to undo their discard claims after half the people in the game have done it then I'm all ears. Until then I'll go back to asking you why you only opposed it early on and not later but are attacking me for not opposing it later.

What are you talking about? Literally the reason I opposed it was *because* it can't be undone. I can't control whether other people claim or not, and I wasn't saying nobody should claim. I was saying I wasn't going to unless there was a consensus that it was the right thing to do.

You apparently always thinking we shouldn't claim is very different. And you could have said at any point that claiming isn't helpful, regardless of how many people had already done it.

No, it isn't. Once a bunch of people have already done it then the argument that it might help narrow down the PR's is utterly futile: Because guess what, if that argument is true then it's already happened. It's exactly the same as a massclaim: If half the game has already massclaimed then you continuing to strongly oppose it would be utterly pointless. And when Bunny outed a discard that actually gives us useful info, that really triggered me into pulling that pin and outing another discard which gave good info.

[ghug]

In answer to your question bob I rely on instincts which you can dumb down as just gut.As a game progresses I get much more analytical and use rereads heavily. I dont really do it as scum, I tend to not go deep into theoreticals as scum.

as for RHK I dont think my answer would give you any of what you seek

This seems disingenuous when you'd have a whole second team to theorize about as scum.

[kgray]

If you can come up with a way for people to undo their discard claims after half the people in the game have done it then I'm all ears. Until then I'll go back to asking you why you only opposed it early on and not later but are attacking me for not opposing it later.

What are you talking about? Literally the reason I opposed it was *because* it can't be undone. I can't control whether other people claim or not, and I wasn't saying nobody should claim. I was saying I wasn't going to unless there was a consensus that it was the right thing to do.

You apparently always thinking we shouldn't claim is very different. And you could have said at any point that claiming isn't helpful, regardless of how many people had already done it.

No, it isn't. Once a bunch of people have already done it then the argument that it might help narrow down the PR's is utterly futile: Because guess what, if that argument is true then it's already happened. It's exactly the same as a massclaim: If half the game has already massclaimed then you continuing to strongly oppose it would be utterly pointless. And when Bunny outed a discard that actually gives us useful info, that really triggered me into pulling that pin and outing another discard which gave good info.

It's not the same when there are a bunch of cards that were not dealt and few ways of knowing which of their two cards someone actually picked.

[ghug]

It would be a bad shot in the sense that I'm town, but from the vig prospective my flip gives lots of info.

Yes kill this one please

Do you not think celaph is likely town for his lack of claim to avoid the DK?

This is a fair point, though I think it's entirely possible that he was waiting on the hopes that the live vote would still go the other way (see Diarist ghug a few games back).

[ghug]

kgray and Hamilton, are you still refusing to answer?

Ezio and Macca, are you still ignoring this?

Bob, are you still not saying what non-town faction you discarded?

We can't trust anything from now on with the claims cause they could have discussed it in their QT

That doesn't mean they shouldn't tell us.

[ghug]

What do you mean, ghug cared about the outcome of the vote? You think he had a strong preference of who was killed?

Less who was killed and more that someone died. My gut is that scum ghug is happy to sit on my wagon. To answer @ezio's follow up question: It requires boldness and confidence to put your name out there at the end of the vote. He risks looking bad until I flip. You've played in different games than me, but the scum I've played with haven't tended to be that bold.

Slightly unrelated, I would like to add Bona to this list of voting people making them look good. I intentionally left him off originally because I was taken aback by his change in tone this night, but on second thought I think the town motivations for doing so are just as strong, if not stronger, than the scum ones.

I think it'd look really suspicious for ghug to be completely uninvolved/uninterested at EOD, so I'd never expect scum!ghug to just sit on your wagon and watch. And I think not caring who is killed, and just that someone dies, is pretty scummy. If you're town (or even if you're scum but ghug isn't in your faction), you should find it incredibly suspicious that he didn't care much which of you or lfischl died. The fact that you're not coming to that conclusion really bothers me.

I don't see why not being very particular about which of the two wagons I'd actively supported on day one is unlike me. I suppose it's very much like the scum game you saw, but that's because I was acting like a townie.

[ghug]

I entirely back kgray's initiation of the celaph wagon. Every town in D1 should have been trying to start their own wagon as that would have if successful ensured the 100% town from their own perspective, themselves, made it through the day, which is a win for town. And if unsuccessful then still becoming a proponent of a slightly more preferred wagon ensures that scum aren't the only ones making pushes. There were plenty of opportunities to build up momentum for various other wagons during the day and people who spend time obsessing over those who attempted to get info for town are malicious or counterproductive

What's your mafia experience, jas?

[ghug]

Okay. Bunny is doing his "prop up the new player and then dismiss them" schtick. Every time I've noticed this, he's been scum.

What exactly is this thing of which you speak? It didn't seem particularly like a dismissal of the player to me. Nor did it seem particularly like propping them up. What exactly do you mean by these two actions?

In my first game, I was town and Bunny was scum, and he flip-flopped between buddying-type compliments of me and aggressively dismissing my reads. It was extremely frustrating so I remember it pretty clearly. He did a similar (but less intense) thing with one of the new players (aaro?) two games ago, and the way he compared jasnah to his kid here after calling her clever earlier felt like that same behavior.

It's just something I associate with scum!Bunny, although I don't think it's impossible that he also does this as town. I will freely admit that I generally default to scumreading Bunny.

I hadn't picked up on this before, but I do find that he's condescending to everyone all of the time.

[damo666]

Dude, just say "they"

Yeah, should have. Sorry. Pissed and frustrated.

Heh, this sounds very redundant in American English.

In English English we would say 'pissed off'. Pissed means drunk. I know you know this but somebody mightn't.

[rdrivera2005]

And I disagree with your take. Bona play have been extremely anti-town and he refuses to listen or acknowledge this is a team game (if he is town) and I fully understand Bunny indignation.

Would you go so far as suggesting Bona is scum, or at least a strong scum lean? There are some who are suggesting Bona's remorse has (as far as I've read) changed their opinion of them.

I never suggested Bona is scum, I said I townread him more then once I think. I just pointed that I understand why Bunny (that also townread Bona) feel frustrated.
His remorse shows he is understanding what people said.

[bozotheclown]

I am sorry I missed EOD. I would not have had much of a preference between lfischl and celaph. Approaching EOD it looked like it was VT vs VT, I was surprising to see that lfischl was the JOAT.

celaph came very close to being the DK without claiming anything besides VT, if he is not town he was taking a chance that he would survive when he could have claimed something to survive D1 and forced a CC, or possibly get lucky and claim a town PR that was not dealt.

Bonatogether's voting was supposedly all about forcing ties and making closer wagons, but he violated this 2 times with regard to rdrivera. If rdrivera is scum, Bonatogether could be his partner.

celaph's wagon came up pretty quick, so I would not take him not claiming PR as evidence that he is actually a VT.

You think that bona breaking a tie to put Rivera in the lead makes him likely to be Rivera's partner?

Yes, if rdrivera is scum, he may have deviated from his voting pattern to distance from rdrivera. Then, when rdrivera and celaph were tied, Bonatogether switched his vote from rdrivera to celaph, changing a tie to a 2 vote lead for celaph, despite claiming to be causing ties whenever possible.

celaph was in the lead when he last posted 5 minutes before EOD. He had plenty of time to make a claim if he wanted to make sure he survived D1.

[brainbomb]

I really don't see how my mentioning of discarding the Mafia LRC remotely took the pressure off Bunny there. For most of the day I didn't really look favourably upon outing discards because I felt it just helped scum figure out who the strong PR's are likely to be and that all those Mafia Goon discard claims really told us absolutely fuck all of use. That changed after Bunny's claim because combined with Bozo's it meant we could rule out a significant number of unique Mafia roles: Godfather, Roleblocker, and Loud Role Cop. Given I find it highly unlikely anyone is willingly to pick the Mafia Compulsive Hider, we now had some good information that the (mafia) scumteam is probably pretty small and certainly pretty powerless - Or damo is right and multiple people are actually the role they discarded. Bunny's claim also meant that anyone who got RB'd would've known it was by town (though the JOAT death invalidates that).

No you claimed and then ghug moved off, everyone moved off and any discussion about the legitimacy of bunnys claim was up in smoke, no effort was made to prod him further or to even question if he was lying. And yea I credit you claiming as providing the cause and effect for why everyone else just said “oh okay”

[Hamilton Brian]

That doesn't mean they shouldn't tell us.

I am still not going to. I sent my rationale for the godthread and one way or another my hypothesis will be confirmed/disconfirmed. Continuing to talk about it just serves to make it someone else's ammunition. As others have said, horse is out of the barn, but there's no need giving scum further advantages.

[ghug]

Assuming you also think Rivera is a decent player, why did you prefer Rivera to celaph if you were null on both of them? Why is celaph more useful to keep around than lfischl, but Rivera isn't?

And none of this explains your (fake, imo) outrage that people weren't trying to prevent a tie when you stayed away from the top two wagons for the ten minutes before EOD.

Rdrivera has an unfortunate habit of scumreading me in almost every single game we play, so I don't especially subscribe to that first point

It's quite simple: I was not concerned about there being a possibility of a tie even when the vote was tied by ghug, because it only took one person to break it. When Bona started pulling his shit that equation drastically changed, so I started actively trying to prevent it - As did ghug. I really do not understand why nobody else was sparked into action by that, especially as every single player except for Bozo/Vecna/Macca/rdrivera and apparently Bob was present (And Bob turned up immediately afterward). Two people out of 16 is a pretty pathetic level of engagement and I really can't understand why so many people were happy to coast to a tie there

I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim that people were "happy to coast to a tie." I wasn't happy with a tie, but I didn't think that jumping my vote around was going to help. I certainly wasn't a experiencing a "coasting" feeling, and I doubt many people were.

It's also pretty scummy that the only concrete reason you can give for preferring Rivera over celaph (especially in the context of you'd prefer lfischl over celaph, but not lfischl over Rivera) is that Rivera has a habit of scumreading you.

How is this what you took away from what he said?

[brainbomb]

suddenly when HR backed it up by outing also having a good scum PR the entire wagon on bunny collectively packed up their gear and went to go sacrifice celaph at burning man