M62: PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF REVOLUTIONARY MAFIA GAME THREAD!

[ghug]

I'll be incredibly civil with my responses here. I really just wanted to do what Eden asked of me, but I cannot sit back and not respond to all that has been said. Sorry Eden, but I will use my own voice this once since numerous others have already:

Worcej is only upset that I'm making jokes about him calling me a bitch because he knows he was wrong, it was inappropriate, and it makes him look bad.

I will be 100% honest - I am sorry for explicitly calling you a bitch. I get the vibe that this is a gendered pronoun that you find incredibly offensive, and intentionally being offensive was not my goal. That being said, my opinion of you is you're incredibly rude, pushy, snarky, overly-sarcastic, and treat certain people as if they are beneath you. These traits all fall under the shorthand, so I just used that. This is not an excuse, but an explanation. Do not interpret this as an excuse. If I have to face any further consequences based on this incident, I will face them without protest.

Back to your above statement - calling you a bitch was wrong, but why I spoke up was not. You were rude to someone for no reason and portrayed all the above traits to that person. I do not regret calling you out for that negative behavior, because I consistently witness you doing it when you play mafia and even outside of mafia on public forums/discords.

I also do not care what people think of me on webDiplomacy. This should be incredibly obvious based on my blunt/rude response back to people that I do like and people who I scum read. I am not here to comfort you, I am here to play a game. If you do not like playing with me, you do not have to - you have that choice.

You brought up GM'ing a game with you - it was actually an incredibly negative experience for me. You designed a game where you made it an 'invitational' so that it would be a good quality game and pick and chose those people by your opinion. You intentionally left people out that you said were bad and talked poorly of several people in this community to me privately. That whole experience is where my negative opinions of you came to fruition - you're just not a person I could see myself being friends with, but that doesn't mean I cannot play a game with you.

I'll ask PE to remove me so y'all don't have to play with a toxic, intellectually dishonest, lazy, low quality person, someone without a sliver of value, idiot, dick, freak, trash, bitch - just some of the things said about me **in this game** and not one apology (I will note that this is the game worcej has been nicest to me, ever, so that should really put this in context). Of course I'm going to retaliate when these are the things I'm being called.

Your colored words are not entirely my own, so the implied representation that they are is disingenuous, which is part of why I am short and not polite to you.

But hey, despite all those words being said about me, I'm the one at fault for **making a joke calling out worcej** - I didn't even insult worcej by making this joke.

If you cannot understand how your 'joke' is a violation of what was asked of us by Eden, then that's on you.

I'll at least explain that your joke, to me, was a provocation for no reason at all. You didn't need to say what you did, but you went out of your way to do it. You felt entitled to bring it up, and you acted on it. You felt like you had to call out the hypocrisy of what Chaqa was doing before I even really said anything of merit for what Chaqa said.

You deserve to be told you're out of line for this post to Chaqa because you were out of line. This doesn't excuse what I did, but just because I started it doesn't mean you get a free pass to behave how you did and keep bringing it up. You know my discord account (unless you forgot it) or could've sent me a PM here and we could've talked privately about how upset you were, but you didn't - you brought this all back up in the thread again.

Same thing I just said above applies to ghug, which I'll get to him shortly.

And I know the squad that is doing that is some sort of weird boys club.



This is all you really need to know. That I was being voted despite the fact that all of those comments against me were done so unprompted. I can't wait for when people call Bunny's daughter a bitch, he'll tell her that she's at fault for calling it out. I know he's partially doing this because he's scum, but I'm v glad that I'm the one to catch him.

I remember why I quit webdip before lmao.

I don't think Bunny did anything other than agree with me regarding you initiating this again unprovoked, the same thing I got flak for doing when I started it by calling you a negative-gender pronoun. His vote on you was for game reasons, as it is highlighted in what he actually said when he placed the vote. I think you're once again being disingenuous by interpreting his vote and opinion of today's actions as being a 'squad' against you.

If we're talking about squads, the 'Durga squad' called me a misogynist (implying I am prejudice against women, which is an incredibly bad accusation to make of someone) and even brought my relationship with my wife into this game. We're all biased here, but I am far more offended by what one of your defenders said to me than I would be if I was called the b-word.

Yeah, I said what I said and I am sorry for saying it how I did, but ghug is right that I don't regret speaking out against you for what you did, I only regret how I did it. As I said above, the reason I said it was you were being incredibly rude to a new player and it didn't sit right to me.

I happen to think saying that she doesn't love worcej is a great compliment.

I made a crude joke, which I regret, about worcej's obsession with insulting and belittling Durga while I was catching up, unaware that he was doing so in the thread at that very time. I was fairly included in the unfairly equivocal calling out of everyone in that argument.

More recently, I got upset with people (Bunny) for similar unfair equivocation.

How is that a compliment ghug? Seriously, please explain this.

And if you think you're being unfairly called out for including my wife in an incredibly rude implication and calling me a misogynist, then you need to self-reflect on how you behave just as much as I do.

You demand an apology for Durga, yet offer none to me for your even worse statements that you doubled down on multiple times.

I'm waiting for my apology from you ghug, so don't start with your ludicrous position that I should apologize to Durga for what I said when you cannot even make the effort to do the same for your toxic behavior.

I have to do it. Sorry Eden. I hope my post will help resolve things instead of enflame things further.

@Worcej
Please don't just assume I'm whiteknighting Durga. People who know both of us will know we've had quite a few arguments in the past about progressive culture and racism/misogynism/libertarianism/a lot of things over the years.

From my viewpoint you called her toxic and a bitch basically out of nowhere from a really tame post Durga made. Like extremely tame compared to what a bunch of players have been posting. I don't actually see what Durga has done that's been so bad.

You essentially called her a bad person irl and it's clear you were targeting her personally because you don't like her out of game. You 100% started it from my viewpoint and it's weird that a bunch of people are pretending you're both equally at fault in this case when the worst Durga has done has got offended you called her a bitch?

Please reread how you've been acting towards her and it might look worse and harsher than you remember or intended, and perhaps you'd understand where she's coming from?

You make valid points in a lot of this Flum, but there have been several posts Durga and ghug have made since the initial spat that I did start that are provoking the situation to boil over again, like it did just now.

I wanted to do nothing but keep playing and handle this later, but here we are and here is my contribution to the derailment.

I’m fucking dead all this man had to do was say two words.

You know I honestly didn't read that post before and now I kinda regret apologizing for any of it

[Yoyoyozo]

yoyo is still showing online. I guess my comment touched him and he's now on page 4

I don’t know why but I remember you being cooler and less douchey when we played in the past. Trust me, there’s nothing you can do to convince me to spend 6 hours (with some breaks) catching up on a forum game.

[Chaqa]

I love you all, but you're demonizing worcej when I do think he has some points. Durga's tone is always abrasive. She isn't alone in this. Jamiet, myself, and many others are the same. Bona is a teenager and I think using such harsh language with him was not needed. I think Worcej calling out Durga's behavior would not be controversial at all with a different word choice.

Durga 100% provoked him by calling out a post I made about Jamiet.

I do not think he is a misogynist, and I think that label is really harmful to throw around so liberally. I think bad mouthing his marriage is pretty despicable, and you are all acting like some sort of friends club and making him out to be an evil person or something, when all of my interactions with worcej throughout the time I've known him have been incredibly positive.

I know that there is a subset of players like Durga, ghug, yoyo, maybe others, who are closer and have known each other and gone to IRL events and such. There's definitely a feeling of cliquey-ness from an outsider's perspective.

There are and have been certain players I think are aggressively toxic in our community, but worcej is not one of them, and I think he's being treated way more harshly than deserved.

[Chaqa]

I'm aware we're not supposed to talk about it, but it took some time for me to review all that had happened and been said and gather my thoughts.

[Yoyoyozo]

I love you all, but you're demonizing worcej when I do think he has some points. Durga's tone is always abrasive. She isn't alone in this. Jamiet, myself, and many others are the same. Bona is a teenager and I think using such harsh language with him was not needed. I think Worcej calling out Durga's behavior would not be controversial at all with a different word choice.

Durga 100% provoked him by calling out a post I made about Jamiet.

I do not think he is a misogynist, and I think that label is really harmful to throw around so liberally. I think bad mouthing his marriage is pretty despicable, and you are all acting like some sort of friends club and making him out to be an evil person or something, when all of my interactions with worcej throughout the time I've known him have been incredibly positive.

I know that there is a subset of players like Durga, ghug, yoyo, maybe others, who are closer and have known each other and gone to IRL events and such. There's definitely a feeling of cliquey-ness from an outsider's perspective.

There are and have been certain players I think are aggressively toxic in our community, but worcej is not one of them, and I think he's being treated way more harshly than deserved.

Idk I’m very abrasive sometimes, and I never get shit for it. I mean I’ll get scum read to death but it doesn’t become an episode of jersey shore like it does with literally everyone taking issue with how durga plays. I think we have similar tonality in how we come across via text and for some reason or another (spoiler it’s our gender) she ends up getting more shit for it. I’ve deadass told people to retire from this game. Like bozo for example.

[Yoyoyozo]

I’m not talking about the situation at hand because after reading up it’s against the GMs wishes. But I’m just saying in general it’s probably best to consider those underlying biases and assumptions we make when talking to someone we perceive as one gender or another

[Yoyoyozo]

Alright I’m going the fuck to sleep. I may or may not read D2 depending on how it it is with keeping up with the end of D3

[Chaqa]

I’m not talking about the situation at hand because after reading up it’s against the GMs wishes. But I’m just saying in general it’s probably best to consider those underlying biases and assumptions we make when talking to someone we perceive as one gender or another

I don't particularly think gender should factor into one's thoughts about any situation. True equality in all things is only going to happen when you treat everyone the same.

if Durga is being a b-word, it's fair to call her a b-word.

If worcej is being a b-word, it's fair to call him a b-word.

That's equality, in my eyes.

[aarodactyl]

Alright I’m going the fuck to sleep. I may or may not read D2 depending on how it it is with keeping up with the end of D3

We have a flowchart for the next few days planned out and there’s no hammer so I think you should have time to catch up.

[ghug]

I’m not talking about the situation at hand because after reading up it’s against the GMs wishes. But I’m just saying in general it’s probably best to consider those underlying biases and assumptions we make when talking to someone we perceive as one gender or another

I don't particularly think gender should factor into one's thoughts about any situation. True equality in all things is only going to happen when you treat everyone the same.

if Durga is being a b-word, it's fair to call her a b-word.

If worcej is being a b-word, it's fair to call him a b-word.

That's equality, in my eyes.

And when two people are acting the same way and you're more likely to call one of them a certain word because of their gender, that's not equality.

I wasn't nice to worcej at all this game. He only called me a bitch to prove how not sexist he was after he called Durga the same thing. I don't recall having been called it in past games either. We're not there.

[aarodactyl]

I’m not talking about the situation at hand because after reading up it’s against the GMs wishes. But I’m just saying in general it’s probably best to consider those underlying biases and assumptions we make when talking to someone we perceive as one gender or another

I don't particularly think gender should factor into one's thoughts about any situation. True equality in all things is only going to happen when you treat everyone the same.

if Durga is being a b-word, it's fair to call her a b-word.

If worcej is being a b-word, it's fair to call him a b-word.

That's equality, in my eyes.

I’d argue it’s fair in neither setting. Also that definition of equality isn’t equitable. It’s my assumption that diplomacy as a whole (and likely this site and this game) has a huge gender problem. If you ever want that to change making statements like that isn’t going to make that happen.

That’s not to say that both sides weren’t escalating the situation in situation where they probably shouldn’t have. They were a lot of chances on both sides to drop the subject and they kept engaging. I know there’s a lot of history I’m missing but it was hard to watch.

Also as an aside, using that word to describe men, still makes the space potentially toxic for women. So maybe let’s just not use it?

[Chaqa]

I’m not talking about the situation at hand because after reading up it’s against the GMs wishes. But I’m just saying in general it’s probably best to consider those underlying biases and assumptions we make when talking to someone we perceive as one gender or another

I don't particularly think gender should factor into one's thoughts about any situation. True equality in all things is only going to happen when you treat everyone the same.

if Durga is being a b-word, it's fair to call her a b-word.

If worcej is being a b-word, it's fair to call him a b-word.

That's equality, in my eyes.

And when two people are acting the same way and you're more likely to call one of them a certain word because of their gender, that's not equality.

I wasn't nice to worcej at all this game. He only called me a bitch to prove how not sexist he was after he called Durga the same thing. I don't recall having been called it in past games either. We're not there.

When I first typed this up, the Durga line used "bitch" while the worcej line used "bastard." I don't think there's anything inherently different about the two words. They both mean roughly the same thing - an asshole. They're just gendered. I get there's other societal issues involved, but jumping straight to misogyny as an answer and making remarks about worcej's marriage is not a productive solution.

If I call you a dick or bastard, it isn't instantly misandry. Calling someone a bitch isn't instantly misogynistic. These words aren't like the n-word, or the f-word that also means cigarettes in the UK, or the c-word that Australians use to refer to people nonchalantly. They're relatively tame swear words in my mind. I'm not saying we should encourage them, but this all seems blown out of proportion.

[Jamiet99uk]

Well the Modkilling of Worcej deprives town of a PR but confirms that BunnyGo is scum if we didn't know that already.

##VOTE BUNNYGO

I hope we can move on now, and I'd suggest any further debate on issues not related to the game is left for after the game - when I am sure there will be some discussion.

[damo666]

as an aside, how do you check who +1's posts? People keep referring to who is +1ing posts, and I have no idea how they know. Also if you +1 this post, it will make testing your instructions easier.

On mobile: you can't. Which is a good reason to ban it.

On computer, hover curser over the plus sign.

Cursor.

Had enough of fucking cursers.

[Jamiet99uk]

as an aside, how do you check who +1's posts? People keep referring to who is +1ing posts, and I have no idea how they know. Also if you +1 this post, it will make testing your instructions easier.

On mobile: you can't. Which is a good reason to ban it.

On computer, hover curser over the plus sign.

Cursor.

Had enough of fucking cursers.

Ghoog uses a Choorsor

[celaph]

Few thoughts after reading that mess:

• I see a lot of people supporting the idea of a hammer, though I also see some concern that we'll get to an end game without many PRs. Let's use the time now to discuss reads and ask questions so we're better prepared for that endgame.
• ghug, what is your opinion of bona?
  You town read him D2 post 3277 and N2 post 4283. Both times having found his argument poor, but in a townie way. That said you scum read him D3 post 5157 for a reason that you don't specify. Then it seems you revert to town reading him D3 post 6090 while ignoring whatever reason you had for scum reading him earlier.
  I would guess that you town read him given that you've expressed that belief both more frequently and more recently.
  
  Speaking to everyone, something in my gut dislikes the fact that the one time ghug has scum read bona was the time Durga had outed herself, but not shared her info. This could be NAI, but if bona is scum PR I have a bad feeling about ghug.
• My opinion of aaro as a human being is really high given his comments during the earlier mess, kudos to him. Additionally, (and if I'm being honest about my biases, probably relatedly) I town read more after today. I feel that his tendency to hyper focus on the QT interaction fits his story that he carefully reread the first 50 pages and doesn't have a team to help him on reads. I also like that when he learned a new way of getting info (+1s), that he used that to generate an insightful comment towards bona.

[damo666]

ghug is a mormon!!

That's a bad typo

I was gonna make that joke but thought it was in bad taste....

[Jamiet99uk]

ghug is a mormon!!

That's a bad typo

I was gonna make that joke but thought it was in bad taste....

I once knew a guy called Norm, who worked as a nightclub bouncer, and as it happens he was raised in the religious traditions of the Latter Day Saint movement.

He was Norman the Mormon the Doorman.

[damo666]

That's a bad typo

I was gonna make that joke but thought it was in bad taste....

I once knew a guy called Norm, who worked as a nightclub bouncer, and as it happens he was raised in the religious traditions of the Latter Day Saint movement.

He was Norman the Mormon the Doorman.

I knew his brother Gordon. There's a song about him.

(This dates me and is probably meaningless to most)

[Vecna]

I mean, in the scenario, you're scum

i somehow got to a 3way as well in the first game Kgray won as scum

yeah...you and I were subs. It's literally the only game I've ever made it to KiLo as town. And it was because I subbed in late.

was i a sub? I did not remember that detail. I know you were