Mafia 57 Matrix

[Jamiet99uk]

Thank you, Foxcastle.

Hi, Ghug.

[ghug]

The absolute correct play is to kill scum. But if we're not doing that, I'm not voting to just hand Bunny his win and then probably lose anyway.

Then why aren't you pushing your top scumread?

Why are you just sulking and complaining about not getting your way, like a spoiled brat?

Is Ghug your #1 scumread? What is your case on him? I have not seen you say anything today about Ghug other than vote for him.

Spoiled brat? First of all, I'm not complaining about not getting my way—I know I'm not getting my way, and that actually gives me the space to make a vote that doesn't affect the outcome. You all can lose the game whatever I do. Besides, I'm not the one here who's frequently threatening to ragequit games, Jameit, or prone to late night screaming tantrums in which I throw abuse at other people and screech that I better not get a hint of snark in return or—oh, I already mentioned your ragequiting. That's what spoiled looks like.

And you find it frustrating that I make no case on ghug? You want me to do something useful and lead you through my thinking? You think it's important that you understand that for the game's sake? Huh, now do you understand why people were asking you to explain your vote on EMC?

But yes, I think ghug is scum. I have often said that the best place for scum to hide is in plain sight, and he's doing a great job of that. On D1, he flops around a good bit before he ends on Summit, which looks like a great spot to hide out for scum, especially now that we know there were no scum on vanity wagons. He was too slow on the uptake to vote for Demon on D2 despite actually being here, so he left his vote on Chaqa and faked confusion.

On D3, he pushed me and EMC. What were his cases? Fuck if I know. Like you, he confuses aggression and scorn for reason or explanation. But we are two of the easiest pushes to make for a mis-flip. Then he lands on TheFlyingBoat—well after his vote mattered—having barely mentioned him all game. Was it to save HR, whom he was townreading? Then why sit on my wagon by himself while HR was in the lead?

D4 is much the same. He votes me, then piles on Rdrivera at the end, having barely mentioned him the whole game. And look at how he does it: HR asks ghug about Rdr, Ghug says "probably scum" and then feels the need to hedge with "I can never read Rd and we don't have any scum flips so that one's 100% POE."

I think he's done a fantastic job of looking townie, letting town mis-flip repeatedly, and hid in plain sight. How many games have we killed off everyone who "felt off" or was inconsistent or jumpy or didn't have good explanations for some things, and then lost the game to Damo or Worcej or Bunny who were slow and steady, townie looking, and out front?

And the only thing he'll be able to say about this, I bet is "see, it just proves Fox is scum!" Because he's never had a real basis for anything this game.

This is truly abysmal.

D1 I flipped around in the hopes of making something happen. Flash and damo were both town. Why would I have done that as scum?

D2 I was around before anyone had decided it was a claim. I was clearly catching up when the hammer dropped.

D3 I made pretty clear that my scumreads were primarily POE with added suspicion on you for your D2 reaction and lack of trying to solve, and added desire to get emc because that was the most informative among my non-townreads. If you were actually reading in trying to determine my scumminess, you'd know that I had listed what was at that point a very large pool of townreads, that Boat wasn't in that pool, and that I said very explicitly that I wanted to vote to save HR.

D4, again POE. This is not hedging, this is an effective means of solving. I was honest about my thought process.

I do indeed believe this proves you're scum. It's lazy and poorly reasoned, much more looking for evidence (seemingly just on the bot, for that matter) to match what you want to push than using that evidence to inform your push. You seem to dislike my approach of establishing a pool of townreads, even though your approach of avoiding giving reads on most people is far more problematic. Who do you have reads on besides me?

[Foxcastle]

Then why aren't you pushing your top scumread?

Why are you just sulking and complaining about not getting your way, like a spoiled brat?

Is Ghug your #1 scumread? What is your case on him? I have not seen you say anything today about Ghug other than vote for him.

Spoiled brat? First of all, I'm not complaining about not getting my way—I know I'm not getting my way, and that actually gives me the space to make a vote that doesn't affect the outcome. You all can lose the game whatever I do. Besides, I'm not the one here who's frequently threatening to ragequit games, Jameit, or prone to late night screaming tantrums in which I throw abuse at other people and screech that I better not get a hint of snark in return or—oh, I already mentioned your ragequiting. That's what spoiled looks like.

And you find it frustrating that I make no case on ghug? You want me to do something useful and lead you through my thinking? You think it's important that you understand that for the game's sake? Huh, now do you understand why people were asking you to explain your vote on EMC?

But yes, I think ghug is scum. I have often said that the best place for scum to hide is in plain sight, and he's doing a great job of that. On D1, he flops around a good bit before he ends on Summit, which looks like a great spot to hide out for scum, especially now that we know there were no scum on vanity wagons. He was too slow on the uptake to vote for Demon on D2 despite actually being here, so he left his vote on Chaqa and faked confusion.

On D3, he pushed me and EMC. What were his cases? Fuck if I know. Like you, he confuses aggression and scorn for reason or explanation. But we are two of the easiest pushes to make for a mis-flip. Then he lands on TheFlyingBoat—well after his vote mattered—having barely mentioned him all game. Was it to save HR, whom he was townreading? Then why sit on my wagon by himself while HR was in the lead?

D4 is much the same. He votes me, then piles on Rdrivera at the end, having barely mentioned him the whole game. And look at how he does it: HR asks ghug about Rdr, Ghug says "probably scum" and then feels the need to hedge with "I can never read Rd and we don't have any scum flips so that one's 100% POE."

I think he's done a fantastic job of looking townie, letting town mis-flip repeatedly, and hid in plain sight. How many games have we killed off everyone who "felt off" or was inconsistent or jumpy or didn't have good explanations for some things, and then lost the game to Damo or Worcej or Bunny who were slow and steady, townie looking, and out front?

And the only thing he'll be able to say about this, I bet is "see, it just proves Fox is scum!" Because he's never had a real basis for anything this game.

This is truly abysmal.

D1 I flipped around in the hopes of making something happen. Flash and damo were both town. Why would I have done that as scum?

D2 I was around before anyone had decided it was a claim. I was clearly catching up when the hammer dropped.

D3 I made pretty clear that my scumreads were primarily POE with added suspicion on you for your D2 reaction and lack of trying to solve, and added desire to get emc because that was the most informative among my non-townreads. If you were actually reading in trying to determine my scumminess, you'd know that I had listed what was at that point a very large pool of townreads, that Boat wasn't in that pool, and that I said very explicitly that I wanted to vote to save HR.

D4, again POE. This is not hedging, this is an effective means of solving. I was honest about my thought process.

I do indeed believe this proves you're scum. It's lazy and poorly reasoned, much more looking for evidence (seemingly just on the bot, for that matter) to match what you want to push than using that evidence to inform your push. You seem to dislike my approach of establishing a pool of townreads, even though your approach of avoiding giving reads on most people is far more problematic. Who do you have reads on besides me?

LOL! Told ya! Of course, he has to lean into it, having been called on it.

Unlike Damo and Worcej a couple games ago, Ghug can't be mild-mannered, but he's done a great job of being ghug without being useful, because he's scum.

He knows that the best way to win is eliminate Bunny—effectively a mis-kill for town's purposes, and way, way easier to manage than navigating an actual EOD—rather than potentially eliminating scum.

[ghug]

Like you'd literally given no indication you scumread me until you got annoyed at me yesterday, and now you've backlogicked a shitty case on me to justify it by quickly going over my voting record, spinning it as scummy without looking at it in any depth, and then summing it up with a "he looks townie so he must be scum".

[ghug]

Spoiled brat? First of all, I'm not complaining about not getting my way—I know I'm not getting my way, and that actually gives me the space to make a vote that doesn't affect the outcome. You all can lose the game whatever I do. Besides, I'm not the one here who's frequently threatening to ragequit games, Jameit, or prone to late night screaming tantrums in which I throw abuse at other people and screech that I better not get a hint of snark in return or—oh, I already mentioned your ragequiting. That's what spoiled looks like.

And you find it frustrating that I make no case on ghug? You want me to do something useful and lead you through my thinking? You think it's important that you understand that for the game's sake? Huh, now do you understand why people were asking you to explain your vote on EMC?

But yes, I think ghug is scum. I have often said that the best place for scum to hide is in plain sight, and he's doing a great job of that. On D1, he flops around a good bit before he ends on Summit, which looks like a great spot to hide out for scum, especially now that we know there were no scum on vanity wagons. He was too slow on the uptake to vote for Demon on D2 despite actually being here, so he left his vote on Chaqa and faked confusion.

On D3, he pushed me and EMC. What were his cases? Fuck if I know. Like you, he confuses aggression and scorn for reason or explanation. But we are two of the easiest pushes to make for a mis-flip. Then he lands on TheFlyingBoat—well after his vote mattered—having barely mentioned him all game. Was it to save HR, whom he was townreading? Then why sit on my wagon by himself while HR was in the lead?

D4 is much the same. He votes me, then piles on Rdrivera at the end, having barely mentioned him the whole game. And look at how he does it: HR asks ghug about Rdr, Ghug says "probably scum" and then feels the need to hedge with "I can never read Rd and we don't have any scum flips so that one's 100% POE."

I think he's done a fantastic job of looking townie, letting town mis-flip repeatedly, and hid in plain sight. How many games have we killed off everyone who "felt off" or was inconsistent or jumpy or didn't have good explanations for some things, and then lost the game to Damo or Worcej or Bunny who were slow and steady, townie looking, and out front?

And the only thing he'll be able to say about this, I bet is "see, it just proves Fox is scum!" Because he's never had a real basis for anything this game.

This is truly abysmal.

D1 I flipped around in the hopes of making something happen. Flash and damo were both town. Why would I have done that as scum?

D2 I was around before anyone had decided it was a claim. I was clearly catching up when the hammer dropped.

D3 I made pretty clear that my scumreads were primarily POE with added suspicion on you for your D2 reaction and lack of trying to solve, and added desire to get emc because that was the most informative among my non-townreads. If you were actually reading in trying to determine my scumminess, you'd know that I had listed what was at that point a very large pool of townreads, that Boat wasn't in that pool, and that I said very explicitly that I wanted to vote to save HR.

D4, again POE. This is not hedging, this is an effective means of solving. I was honest about my thought process.

I do indeed believe this proves you're scum. It's lazy and poorly reasoned, much more looking for evidence (seemingly just on the bot, for that matter) to match what you want to push than using that evidence to inform your push. You seem to dislike my approach of establishing a pool of townreads, even though your approach of avoiding giving reads on most people is far more problematic. Who do you have reads on besides me?

LOL! Told ya! Of course, he has to lean into it, having been called on it.

Unlike Damo and Worcej a couple games ago, Ghug can't be mild-mannered, but he's done a great job of being ghug without being useful, because he's scum.

He knows that the best way to win is eliminate Bunny—effectively a mis-kill for town's purposes, and way, way easier to manage than navigating an actual EOD—rather than potentially eliminating scum.

Advocating sub-optimal town play is not how I would approach being this close to winning as scum.

[Foxcastle]

Like you'd literally given no indication you scumread me until you got annoyed at me yesterday, and now you've backlogicked a shitty case on me to justify it by quickly going over my voting record, spinning it as scummy without looking at it in any depth, and then summing it up with a "he looks townie so he must be scum".

I mean, I learned it from watching you? Where's your great cases on anything or anyone? "Uh uh uh... POE! Yeah, that's it!"

If we killed the people everyone thought was townie over the people everyone was sure to be scum—particularly approaching endgame—then town would have won several of their last few games that turned out otherwise. I am not saying townie-looking==scum, but I am saying scum hide among those who look townie.

[Foxcastle]

Also, the "you'd literally given no indication you scumread me until you got annoyed at me yesterday, and now you've backlogicked a shitty case on me to justify it" is a scum mindset. Town change their mind all the time, or see things that change their mind. Or just say "Maybe it's this other thing" and run with and see what happens. The idea that scumreads must be a logical progression is something that scum worry about, not town trying find scum.

[ghug]

Like you'd literally given no indication you scumread me until you got annoyed at me yesterday, and now you've backlogicked a shitty case on me to justify it by quickly going over my voting record, spinning it as scummy without looking at it in any depth, and then summing it up with a "he looks townie so he must be scum".

I mean, I learned it from watching you? Where's your great cases on anything or anyone? "Uh uh uh... POE! Yeah, that's it!"

If we killed the people everyone thought was townie over the people everyone was sure to be scum—particularly approaching endgame—then town would have won several of their last few games that turned out otherwise. I am not saying townie-looking==scum, but I am saying scum hide among those who look townie.

I've been saying big cases were overrated for about 5 years. I have done chunks of in depth analysis anyway, which is more than I can say for you.

If you think we should be killing people who look like town over people who look like scum, the correct answer is to reevaluate what people look like. There are probably scum hiding, but saying I'm scum simply because I don't look like I am isn't credible.

Again, I ask you for your opinions on others. Bo has gotten himself widely townread on the back of intense emotion, but is avoiding speaking on a large breath of people or moving his vote around a lot. Does that fit your definition of scum hiding among those who look townie?

[ghug]

Also, the "you'd literally given no indication you scumread me until you got annoyed at me yesterday, and now you've backlogicked a shitty case on me to justify it" is a scum mindset. Town change their mind all the time, or see things that change their mind. Or just say "Maybe it's this other thing" and run with and see what happens. The idea that scumreads must be a logical progression is something that scum worry about, not town trying find scum.

It's the back logic that's a problem, not the mind changing.

You decided you wanted to push me and then went back to find things to justify it. You didn't go looking for things and settle on me.

[ghug]

Hi emc

[e.m.c^42]

Firstly before I forget off on some tangent or other, ##vote bunny

[e.m.c^42]

Hi emc

hey <3

[Foxcastle]

Like you'd literally given no indication you scumread me until you got annoyed at me yesterday, and now you've backlogicked a shitty case on me to justify it by quickly going over my voting record, spinning it as scummy without looking at it in any depth, and then summing it up with a "he looks townie so he must be scum".

I mean, I learned it from watching you? Where's your great cases on anything or anyone? "Uh uh uh... POE! Yeah, that's it!"

If we killed the people everyone thought was townie over the people everyone was sure to be scum—particularly approaching endgame—then town would have won several of their last few games that turned out otherwise. I am not saying townie-looking==scum, but I am saying scum hide among those who look townie.

I've been saying big cases were overrated for about 5 years. I have done chunks of in depth analysis anyway, which is more than I can say for you.

If you think we should be killing people who look like town over people who look like scum, the correct answer is to reevaluate what people look like. There are probably scum hiding, but saying I'm scum simply because I don't look like I am isn't credible.

Again, I ask you for your opinions on others. Bo has gotten himself widely townread on the back of intense emotion, but is avoiding speaking on a large breath of people or moving his vote around a lot. Does that fit your definition of scum hiding among those who look townie?

Nah, your "in depth analysis" was a tedious recounting of events. Easy to do as scum and come to whatever conclusion you want. It happens frequently.

Anyway, it's convenient that the "big cases are overrated" argument comes out now, despite people asking you for more info all through game and you basically ignoring them. Is it just an afterthought? We wanted information from you, and "big cases are overrated" is a pretty valuable thing for us to know about your way of thinking.

And again, you're trying to twist my words. I am not saying you are scum simply because you don't look like you are. I'm saying you're scum because you've hidden it well and managed to do nothing useful for town for five days. You're wise enough that you haven't put stock in big cases for five years, but what has all that experience and wisdom and insight gotten us this game? Nothing.

I'm not worried about Bo. Bo's not the kill today, and he's not driving town to a loss tomorrow. (But nice effort to deflect.) You're killing Bunny to hide any possible useful information that could come out of today, so that tomorrow when we absolutely have to nail scum (and every day thereafter, I think? I haven't done the math), we have one less day of information to work from.

[Foxcastle]

Also, the "you'd literally given no indication you scumread me until you got annoyed at me yesterday, and now you've backlogicked a shitty case on me to justify it" is a scum mindset. Town change their mind all the time, or see things that change their mind. Or just say "Maybe it's this other thing" and run with and see what happens. The idea that scumreads must be a logical progression is something that scum worry about, not town trying find scum.

It's the back logic that's a problem, not the mind changing.

You decided you wanted to push me and then went back to find things to justify it. You didn't go looking for things and settle on me.

What you are describing is "a case," which is thing that happens dozens of times each game when a player says "I wonder if X could be scum" and goes to see if that fits.

Why aren't you attacking the scum case on you I actually found, though? Like, if those things aren't true, you could be going after them, but you're not. Is the best refutation "I know you are, but what am I"???

[Jamiet99uk]

@FoxCastle: How can you take the view that removing Bunny today is both the safest thing to do, and the worst possible idea that will lose town the game?

You seem to be saying that you simultaneously hold both of these opinions.

[Nanook]

Is this the appropriate time to say “cases are scummy” or...?



[god I hope someone here is familiar with that meme]

[Jamiet99uk]

@FoxCastle: How can you take the view that removing Bunny today is both the safest thing to do, and the worst possible idea that will lose town the game?

You seem to be saying that you simultaneously hold both of these opinions.

Also, @FoxCastle: Do you endorse GoldFinger's anti-virus plan if we don't remove Bunny today?

Or are you just advocating a scenario in which we never remove Bunny at all?

If the latter, how can we deal with the fact that BunnyGo will very likely be motivated to try to kill townies in that scenario?

What is our path to victory, in your mind?

[bo_sox48]

Post 1 post 2 idk how many times I've posted ##VOTE no one

[bo_sox48]

I have asked for a sub. I'll explain it some other time.

[ghug]

Smh