wD Mafia Master Post

[worcej]

I missed this specific post and will reply since I think this may help explain myself better.

I'm interested in hearing anyone's answer to the following. Please read it with as much earnestness and sincerity as you possibly can something from the internet:

What are your needs, and how are they not currently being met?

I need clear and explicit 'social lines' that I need to not cross so that M62 doesn't happen again.

They are not being met because I am concerned that we're enabling some 'gray areas' and adding nuances that I will almost certainly fail at. I can see myself comfortably using certain pronouns/terms with some people in this community that won't be offended, but others will find offensive and I don't want to have that happen again.

I think HR's right that there's too much subtlety and context to write rules ahead of time that won't have unforeseen shortcomings.

A couple of thoughts on how to meet this need. I'd be curious which one(s) you'd find most appealing not because the intent is to strongarm you into one of them but because your role in the past incident gives you unique insight, much as mine gives me on ideas on how to avoid escalation.

• Accept that you'll get public warnings if you cross lines and be ready to apologize, learn, and move on. Obvious downsides here are egg on face and potential for argument if it comes to it, but it's pretty straightforward.

• Wear kid gives around people with whom you have tenuous relationships. I voted for you last game, but I also avoided direct confrontation with you, as did Durga, and I imagine you yourself.

• Don't use insults that traditionally apply to a group of people. Even Vecna has stopped using the L word at this point, so we know we're all capable as a community of just avoiding problematic words. Obviously that's not sufficient to ensure respect, but it's a good starting point.

• Allow the GM to issue warnings privately on condition of pubic apology. Thus maybe leads to behavior people might flag as abnormal, which is problematic in a social deduction game, but it does allow saving face.

Slightly dangerous territory here, but I think the root of what you're missing from my side's argument is the impetus for the use of "bitch". When you called Durga one, or me, or your coworker, you did so because we were acting in ways that you considered "bitchy". Rudeness, complaining, passive-aggressiveness. The history of the term is rooted in association of women with those negative attributes. When Durga called HR and I bitches, it was simply because we were doing something she didn't like. There weren't additional behavioral connotations.

For the sake of responding, each number comment refers to a bullet point.

1. Public warnings of infractions are perfect. Using the M62 situation as context, if I was publicly 'spanked', or even removed, for what I did, I strongly believe both Durga and yourself would've been satisfied with that outcome and the situation wouldn't have gotten worse.
2. 'Wearing kid gloves' is not something I am good at. I know this about myself and realize it's a shortcoming. This isn't to say that I won't work on it, but I don't see myself always being successful at this because I usually match intensity/tone of conversations. This is obviously troublesome with certain players due to they can be rough and blunt in their own ways, so a lot of my dialogue with others attempts to match that.
   
   This is a long winded way to say I suck at reading between 'socially acceptable and not acceptable' via internet dialogue, especially text based and especially in a public mafia game where we are all talking in the same thread. I benefit more from clearly defined boundaries of what is or is not acceptable.
   
   In general, I approached M63 with a 'don't be a dick' mentality. Like my scum case on you, I could've simply said 'you're not being a raging asshole like normal' and my intended message would've been the same. Instead, I went long-winded and said you were 'being different and not stirring the pot like normal'.
   
   I didn't have a need to even engage with Durga and I didn't avoid her intentionally. The subsequent drama that entered M63 about the 'Unhide thread' is entirely on her for dragging it into the game and quite honestly never needed to be there to begin with.
3. I don't think 'Don't use insults that traditionally apply to a group of people' is going to work because most insults can apply to groups of people. Even 'asshole' is a word that targets a group of people and is pretty close to the male gendered form of 'bitch'. In my own use, the major difference is aggressive versus passive aggressive in when I use it. This isn't to say that the history of the two words is remotely the same, but in typical use around me both IRL and online, this is the case.
   
   You bring up an interesting point regarding the L word. To speak for myself, the reason why it's incredibly easy for me to not use the L word (though I have slipped as we transitioned) is because there is absolutely no gray area - we've specifically said that word is not acceptable and we need to not use it. It's a clear boundary that I need to respect, thus it's a non-issue for me to move forward with.
4. I think this works too. M62's shortcoming was the request (and even my realization) for the apology came about when things had escalated significantly. In the heat of the moment, I wanted to fight tooth and nail and go for blood. Reflecting afterwards, I can see how I was completely in the wrong and the instigator and should've just apologized quickly to cool things down.

In regards to the last paragraph, I don't disagree with the intended use of Durga's but I do struggle with how she can be offended to be called it, yet use the word negatively at others.

Like, for trying to explain my thought process a little, let's assume you called her a bitch for how she's acting someday - would her response be the same as it was in M62? I cannot know for sure, but based on her responses in other places my gut says no, it wouldn't have been a big deal and the only reason why is because you have an established friendship. I personally don't understand how this differentiation can exist - both uses of the word are negative reflections of the recipient and the intent was the same (in my eyes) so the negative response should be the same.

[brainbomb]

I dont think people on webdip base their opinions of people on whether durga likes them. If they did im pretty sure Id had zero friends here. I dont know why you care so much about being right while admitting being wrong. Most of us dont think its a good idea to call a woman a bitch. I would never say that to my wife or my mom or sisters. and if i did it would be in the most obvious joke manner

[brainbomb]

moving on, can we discuss how horrible I am at mafia

[Hamilton Brian]

moving on, can we discuss how horrible I am at mafia

I think I take that crown.

[Hellenic Riot]

I don't really agree that private warnings are a good solution, though of course public warnings can be expanded upon privately as well. But the benefit of a public warning is that you not only shut down/punish Player X for what they've said or done, but you also make it very clear to everyone else that retaliation is not permitted and the topic is done. Over. Move on. Rather than it being continually driven back up.


Bunny's posts about the slightly different topic of GM Communications sort of back this up: If he was warned privately by Tom but nothing was said publicly, there was nothing to stop people continually pushing him over this and it being brought up again and again.

[dargorygel]

I don't really agree that private warnings are a good solution, though of course public warnings can be expanded upon privately as well. But the benefit of a public warning is that you not only shut down/punish Player X for what they've said or done, but you also make it very clear to everyone else that retaliation is not permitted and the topic is done. Over. Move on. Rather than it being continually driven back up.


Bunny's posts about the slightly different topic of GM Communications sort of back this up: If he was warned privately by Tom but nothing was said publicly, there was nothing to stop people continually pushing him over this and it being brought up again and again.

Thus my declaration that both should be given. Private (in detail) and Public (in general) given at the same time, seems goodly.

[dargorygel]

Are you even READING this thread, HR???
##VOTE HELLENIC RIOT

[Hellenic Riot]

It was a response to ghug's list of four options

[damo666]

moving on, can we discuss how horrible I am at mafia

I think I take that crown.

You can both share it.

[President Eden]

At least as regards M62, the private/public warning issue is also my bad. I had forgotten about it amidst everything else, but there was some discontent with my strong preference for private warnings, so I figure I should explain.

I think private warnings are much more effective at getting people to change their behavior, because you take away the instinctive prideful reaction of doubling down on bad behavior when you admonish in private. From my perspective, it was my job to do what I thought would most effectively stop the bad behavior.

I didn't appreciate, until after the damage was done in M62, how much this community values the other side of private/public warning, which is the message sent to all players - but especially those hurt by the bad behavior - that the bad behavior isn't tolerated and that the GMs are actively involved in ensuring that all players have an enjoyable and civil game environment.

Going forward I would use a hybrid public/private warning system like darg describes, because whatever my preferences may be, it's ultimately the GM's job to enforce community values and judgments, not their own.

[Jamiet99uk]

Thank you all for your continued contributions - a serious and sincere debate which I have found very useful.

(Btw BB it wasn't Chaqa who trolled us with an "everyone is a Vigilante" bastard mod game, it was Captainmeme, but I have forgiven him now).

Dargorygel and I have been discussing our formal response to all of this but Darg may be slightly tied up for the next little while. But we'll have a formal statement in due course, after which I'll be able to tell you all about the madness that will be M 64...

Note this is not an attempt to silence the discussion; please continue to comment if you wish.

[ghug]

I missed this specific post and will reply since I think this may help explain myself better.

I need clear and explicit 'social lines' that I need to not cross so that M62 doesn't happen again.

They are not being met because I am concerned that we're enabling some 'gray areas' and adding nuances that I will almost certainly fail at. I can see myself comfortably using certain pronouns/terms with some people in this community that won't be offended, but others will find offensive and I don't want to have that happen again.

I think HR's right that there's too much subtlety and context to write rules ahead of time that won't have unforeseen shortcomings.

A couple of thoughts on how to meet this need. I'd be curious which one(s) you'd find most appealing not because the intent is to strongarm you into one of them but because your role in the past incident gives you unique insight, much as mine gives me on ideas on how to avoid escalation.

• Accept that you'll get public warnings if you cross lines and be ready to apologize, learn, and move on. Obvious downsides here are egg on face and potential for argument if it comes to it, but it's pretty straightforward.

• Wear kid gives around people with whom you have tenuous relationships. I voted for you last game, but I also avoided direct confrontation with you, as did Durga, and I imagine you yourself.

• Don't use insults that traditionally apply to a group of people. Even Vecna has stopped using the L word at this point, so we know we're all capable as a community of just avoiding problematic words. Obviously that's not sufficient to ensure respect, but it's a good starting point.

• Allow the GM to issue warnings privately on condition of pubic apology. Thus maybe leads to behavior people might flag as abnormal, which is problematic in a social deduction game, but it does allow saving face.

Slightly dangerous territory here, but I think the root of what you're missing from my side's argument is the impetus for the use of "bitch". When you called Durga one, or me, or your coworker, you did so because we were acting in ways that you considered "bitchy". Rudeness, complaining, passive-aggressiveness. The history of the term is rooted in association of women with those negative attributes. When Durga called HR and I bitches, it was simply because we were doing something she didn't like. There weren't additional behavioral connotations.

For the sake of responding, each number comment refers to a bullet point.

1. Public warnings of infractions are perfect. Using the M62 situation as context, if I was publicly 'spanked', or even removed, for what I did, I strongly believe both Durga and yourself would've been satisfied with that outcome and the situation wouldn't have gotten worse.
2. 'Wearing kid gloves' is not something I am good at. I know this about myself and realize it's a shortcoming. This isn't to say that I won't work on it, but I don't see myself always being successful at this because I usually match intensity/tone of conversations. This is obviously troublesome with certain players due to they can be rough and blunt in their own ways, so a lot of my dialogue with others attempts to match that.
   
   This is a long winded way to say I suck at reading between 'socially acceptable and not acceptable' via internet dialogue, especially text based and especially in a public mafia game where we are all talking in the same thread. I benefit more from clearly defined boundaries of what is or is not acceptable.
   
   In general, I approached M63 with a 'don't be a dick' mentality. Like my scum case on you, I could've simply said 'you're not being a raging asshole like normal' and my intended message would've been the same. Instead, I went long-winded and said you were 'being different and not stirring the pot like normal'.
   
   I didn't have a need to even engage with Durga and I didn't avoid her intentionally. The subsequent drama that entered M63 about the 'Unhide thread' is entirely on her for dragging it into the game and quite honestly never needed to be there to begin with.
3. I don't think 'Don't use insults that traditionally apply to a group of people' is going to work because most insults can apply to groups of people. Even 'asshole' is a word that targets a group of people and is pretty close to the male gendered form of 'bitch'. In my own use, the major difference is aggressive versus passive aggressive in when I use it. This isn't to say that the history of the two words is remotely the same, but in typical use around me both IRL and online, this is the case.
   
   You bring up an interesting point regarding the L word. To speak for myself, the reason why it's incredibly easy for me to not use the L word (though I have slipped as we transitioned) is because there is absolutely no gray area - we've specifically said that word is not acceptable and we need to not use it. It's a clear boundary that I need to respect, thus it's a non-issue for me to move forward with.
4. I think this works too. M62's shortcoming was the request (and even my realization) for the apology came about when things had escalated significantly. In the heat of the moment, I wanted to fight tooth and nail and go for blood. Reflecting afterwards, I can see how I was completely in the wrong and the instigator and should've just apologized quickly to cool things down.

In regards to the last paragraph, I don't disagree with the intended use of Durga's but I do struggle with how she can be offended to be called it, yet use the word negatively at others.

Like, for trying to explain my thought process a little, let's assume you called her a bitch for how she's acting someday - would her response be the same as it was in M62? I cannot know for sure, but based on her responses in other places my gut says no, it wouldn't have been a big deal and the only reason why is because you have an established friendship. I personally don't understand how this differentiation can exist - both uses of the word are negative reflections of the recipient and the intent was the same (in my eyes) so the negative response should be the same.

A few points.

One, you brought statements in an active game up outside of the game, attempting to restart the argument while the two of you were playing a game together. Saying it was all on her is a little ridiculous.

Two, if the stated difference between bitch and asshole is aggressiveness vs. passive aggressiveness (not getting into how that's problematic itself), and you called Durga a bitch for being aggressive, there has to have been something else going on.

Three, if I'd called Durga a bitch there, I can assure you I would have gotten an identical response, friendship or no.

Four, I do agree with you that the easiest solution is to simply not allow a word if it's problematic, but it's also impossible to ignore that there's nuance to context, and that if we are going to afford some amount of leeway, we have to acknowledge that the situations weren't equally problematic.

[BunnyGo]

moving on, can we discuss how horrible I am at mafia

Did you forget my previous 2 games already. Ride Flum’s Nirvana. We all suck. We’re all great.

[e.m.c^42]

My small half-cent as a watcher, and someone who's...considerably worse at reading social cues in terms of whatever innate sense most people have:

Up until right before GM started issuing game-state altering announcements, I was mostly glazing over it because I thought it was theatre - for the sake of derailing game with out-of-game, topically charged arguments that very easily would draw in bystanders simply due to being what it is. No need to fake solving if everyone is pissing up each other's ears.

Unfortunately, that was likely worst misread of situation out of everyone here, lol.

But I do think it says something about what's considered "normal" in mafia games that it was first and lasting assumption.

[worcej]

I think HR's right that there's too much subtlety and context to write rules ahead of time that won't have unforeseen shortcomings.

A couple of thoughts on how to meet this need. I'd be curious which one(s) you'd find most appealing not because the intent is to strongarm you into one of them but because your role in the past incident gives you unique insight, much as mine gives me on ideas on how to avoid escalation.

• Accept that you'll get public warnings if you cross lines and be ready to apologize, learn, and move on. Obvious downsides here are egg on face and potential for argument if it comes to it, but it's pretty straightforward.

• Wear kid gives around people with whom you have tenuous relationships. I voted for you last game, but I also avoided direct confrontation with you, as did Durga, and I imagine you yourself.

• Don't use insults that traditionally apply to a group of people. Even Vecna has stopped using the L word at this point, so we know we're all capable as a community of just avoiding problematic words. Obviously that's not sufficient to ensure respect, but it's a good starting point.

• Allow the GM to issue warnings privately on condition of pubic apology. Thus maybe leads to behavior people might flag as abnormal, which is problematic in a social deduction game, but it does allow saving face.

Slightly dangerous territory here, but I think the root of what you're missing from my side's argument is the impetus for the use of "bitch". When you called Durga one, or me, or your coworker, you did so because we were acting in ways that you considered "bitchy". Rudeness, complaining, passive-aggressiveness. The history of the term is rooted in association of women with those negative attributes. When Durga called HR and I bitches, it was simply because we were doing something she didn't like. There weren't additional behavioral connotations.

For the sake of responding, each number comment refers to a bullet point.

1. Public warnings of infractions are perfect. Using the M62 situation as context, if I was publicly 'spanked', or even removed, for what I did, I strongly believe both Durga and yourself would've been satisfied with that outcome and the situation wouldn't have gotten worse.
2. 'Wearing kid gloves' is not something I am good at. I know this about myself and realize it's a shortcoming. This isn't to say that I won't work on it, but I don't see myself always being successful at this because I usually match intensity/tone of conversations. This is obviously troublesome with certain players due to they can be rough and blunt in their own ways, so a lot of my dialogue with others attempts to match that.
   
   This is a long winded way to say I suck at reading between 'socially acceptable and not acceptable' via internet dialogue, especially text based and especially in a public mafia game where we are all talking in the same thread. I benefit more from clearly defined boundaries of what is or is not acceptable.
   
   In general, I approached M63 with a 'don't be a dick' mentality. Like my scum case on you, I could've simply said 'you're not being a raging asshole like normal' and my intended message would've been the same. Instead, I went long-winded and said you were 'being different and not stirring the pot like normal'.
   
   I didn't have a need to even engage with Durga and I didn't avoid her intentionally. The subsequent drama that entered M63 about the 'Unhide thread' is entirely on her for dragging it into the game and quite honestly never needed to be there to begin with.
3. I don't think 'Don't use insults that traditionally apply to a group of people' is going to work because most insults can apply to groups of people. Even 'asshole' is a word that targets a group of people and is pretty close to the male gendered form of 'bitch'. In my own use, the major difference is aggressive versus passive aggressive in when I use it. This isn't to say that the history of the two words is remotely the same, but in typical use around me both IRL and online, this is the case.
   
   You bring up an interesting point regarding the L word. To speak for myself, the reason why it's incredibly easy for me to not use the L word (though I have slipped as we transitioned) is because there is absolutely no gray area - we've specifically said that word is not acceptable and we need to not use it. It's a clear boundary that I need to respect, thus it's a non-issue for me to move forward with.
4. I think this works too. M62's shortcoming was the request (and even my realization) for the apology came about when things had escalated significantly. In the heat of the moment, I wanted to fight tooth and nail and go for blood. Reflecting afterwards, I can see how I was completely in the wrong and the instigator and should've just apologized quickly to cool things down.

In regards to the last paragraph, I don't disagree with the intended use of Durga's but I do struggle with how she can be offended to be called it, yet use the word negatively at others.

Like, for trying to explain my thought process a little, let's assume you called her a bitch for how she's acting someday - would her response be the same as it was in M62? I cannot know for sure, but based on her responses in other places my gut says no, it wouldn't have been a big deal and the only reason why is because you have an established friendship. I personally don't understand how this differentiation can exist - both uses of the word are negative reflections of the recipient and the intent was the same (in my eyes) so the negative response should be the same.

A few points.

One, you brought statements in an active game up outside of the game, attempting to restart the argument while the two of you were playing a game together. Saying it was all on her is a little ridiculous.

Two, if the stated difference between bitch and asshole is aggressiveness vs. passive aggressiveness (not getting into how that's problematic itself), and you called Durga a bitch for being aggressive, there has to have been something else going on.

Three, if I'd called Durga a bitch there, I can assure you I would have gotten an identical response, friendship or no.

Four, I do agree with you that the easiest solution is to simply not allow a word if it's problematic, but it's also impossible to ignore that there's nuance to context, and that if we are going to afford some amount of leeway, we have to acknowledge that the situations weren't equally problematic.

The fact the statement referred to was from an active game shouldn’t have effected anything with M63. The fact I was told by her that if I have any issues that I should take it up with Tom privately and then she brought up that conversation in the public game is telling of the real intent

In regards to two - I have opportunities for improvement. Not going to deny that.

Like I said, my gut interpretation is an assumption. It very well be wrong - I cannot verify it in any way.

[worcej]

I dont think people on webdip base their opinions of people on whether durga likes them. If they did im pretty sure Id had zero friends here. I dont know why you care so much about being right while admitting being wrong. Most of us dont think its a good idea to call a woman a bitch. I would never say that to my wife or my mom or sisters. and if i did it would be in the most obvious joke manner

I think you are missing my intent if discussing all this if you are assuming I want to be right here.

I want the drama of M62 to never happen again. That is my intent.

[ghug]

I dont think people on webdip base their opinions of people on whether durga likes them. If they did im pretty sure Id had zero friends here. I dont know why you care so much about being right while admitting being wrong. Most of us dont think its a good idea to call a woman a bitch. I would never say that to my wife or my mom or sisters. and if i did it would be in the most obvious joke manner

I think you are missing my intent if discussing all this if you are assuming I want to be right here.

I want the drama of M62 to never happen again. That is my intent.

Then—and I know I just furthered the argument a minute ago myself—maybe we drop all of it for now and see how having council members sitting out and encouraging public warnings works for us. That seems to be where we've converged.

[worcej]

[quote=worcej post_id=211151 time=<a href="tel:1611079398">1611079398</a> user_id=857]
[quote=brainbomb post_id=211137 time=<a href="tel:1611073962">1611073962</a> user_id=62]
I dont think people on webdip base their opinions of people on whether durga likes them. If they did im pretty sure Id had zero friends here. I dont know why you care so much about being right while admitting being wrong. Most of us dont think its a good idea to call a woman a bitch. I would never say that to my wife or my mom or sisters. and if i did it would be in the most obvious joke manner

I think you are missing my intent if discussing all this if you are assuming I want to be right here.

I want the drama of M62 to never happen again. That is my intent.
[/quote]

Then—and I know I just furthered the argument a minute ago myself—maybe we drop all of it for now and see how having council members sitting out and encouraging public warnings works for us. That seems to be where we've converged.
[/quote]I entirely agree this is a good first step that may cover everything ultimately. I also don’t think it’s a bad idea to have a third council member and would think anyone other than myself would be good additions, if they wanted to take that upon themselves.

FWIW, I have been paying attention to the GM related comments and reflecting internally on them on what I should do to improve those situations. Not to drag it up, but I was the GM when the ChippeRock situation happened and I do not believe I handled that one right because I did it mostly behind the scenes at the time instead of publicly handling it.

[worcej]

Ooof on screwing the quote up...

[worcej]

I think worcej should self ban for a game or more.
Usually something like what worcej did and what ghug did result in recusing oneself for a game to show contrition.

I did this a few times, chaqa has sat out a game before, jamie has a few times and im sure others have also for conduct. Usually sitting out a game or two shows a sign of remorse and acceptance of wrongdoing. then you come back fresh and ready to play a more focused game.

To explain, this is why I signed up only as a sub originally. My goal was to sit out and just reflect, but as a GM I know our sub list is rather limited so I wanted to be available as a last resort so that modkills are avoided.

I entered M63 with the intent to not be a pot stirrer and be selective and self-checking with my posts. I think I did okay at this.

My intent with Jamie’s game is to co-GM if he still needs one, otherwise do the same thing again - be a worst case scenario sub to prevent modkills.