M1007 — "Mafia, She Wrote" Game Thread

[xorxes]

I am going to ##VOTE Vashta as well. This should have happened yesterday. I do have some stuff to catch up on. But, Vashta is more clear cut then the whole xorxes/teacon mess.

Lurkers plus lazy town will lose us this game.

[MoscowFleet]

I’m back boys.

Teacon, is your post on page 71 the entirety of your case on xorxes?

Xorxes, do you have a similar post where you give a summary of why you strongly believe Teacon is scum? Also, do you have a post where you reply to Teacon’s case?

Asking these questions because as much as I enjoy getting waterboarded and sleeping on nails, I really do not want to reread all of Xorxes v Teacon (2019), as it will probably drive me insane.

[MoscowFleet]

Not gonna lie though, scum getting cop and doc on their first two kills makes me think the scumteam includes either xorxes or bozo.

[xorxes]

If Vashta flips town, I think everyone should decide between you and teacon D4.

But you very possibly won't be here to enforce that.

Either Moscow or ND would have to be the enforcers. I don't think ND is up to it, he is too far into teacon's pocket. Moscow seems to be MIA.

If Vashta flips scum, maybe everyone will reevaluate.

It would surprise me enormously. The only case against Vashta is that he is playing like shit. Not alignment indicative.

Are you still sure Vashta is town after his reaction to the D2 flip?

Yes, it's the reaction of someone uninvested in the game.

What do you think of teacon's reaction after Espresso's flip? He forgot that he was scumreading me apparently.

[MoscowFleet]

@bozo I see Vash’s reaction to the flip but I’m having trouble seeing exactly what’s so incriminating about it. Seems like a lame joke to me more than anything else.

Yes, Vash hasn’t posted much and could be lurky scum, but I haven’t seen anything from him that couldn’t come from town. I don’t think we should lynch outside of Teacon/Xorxes right now because if we mislynch today, and then guess wrong on Teacon/Xorxes, we’re putting ourselves at lylo, or WCS teac/xorx is TvT and we lose the game.

[xorxes]

I’m back boys.

Teacon, is your post on page 71 the entirety of your case on xorxes?

Xorxes, do you have a similar post where you give a summary of why you strongly believe Teacon is scum? Also, do you have a post where you reply to Teacon’s case?

Asking these questions because as much as I enjoy getting waterboarded and sleeping on nails, I really do not want to reread all of Xorxes v Teacon (2019), as it will probably drive me insane.

I can give you a summary of my case but the only way to convince yourself is reading teacon yourself. Otherwise you only get how I'm reading him.

There were little things that made me feel uneasy about him during D1:

- the way he interrogated emc (I can go into details but it's better if you form your own opinion) it's a sequence of three posts, with a comment from me before he launches the big interrogation)
- the way he dismissed my case on damo (I know others did it as well, including you, but there was something about him that felt particularly wrong).
- the whole scumhunting by tiers thing
- probably some other stuff I'm forgetting now

Nothing in itself too significant, but it kept building up.

Then after damo's flip I suggested he should be next. He disappeared from the thread after being second poster D1. He explained that as RL, which is possible, but he had time to write his EON novel so he was not completely short of time. Town would rather use whatever time they have for the game to write in the thread instead of retreating to write a novel that probably nobody else but me read anyway.

I did an iso of damo and noticed that damo only interacted with teacon and Vapor. (And bozo, emc and myself but to a much lesser extent and less significantly.) I found that interesting, and it got me started on Vapor as well (and possibly bozo, but much less likely).

I did a full reread of teacon's D1 and realized that his vote for damo, though at first sight redeeming, was in fact pretty much forced by the statements he had made, so it didn't really get him off the hook.

Then he posted his bizarrely long EON post where he mostly defends his actions from my case, while at the same time claiming to believe that I made the case as a ruse to fool scum into keeping me alive. The post also includes unabashed pocketing of ND and very weird reads of Vapor.

Then D2 we had a back and forth that only helped me solidify my read, and when he distorted my case to bring in logical fallacies I knew for sure he was scum. He wasn't interested in finding the truth, he was just interested in winning an argument.

After all that there's other things I kept finding, but adding them here would just detract from the main case, where the confirming thing for me was that he used in a few instances dishonest debating tactics that are only used to win arguments.

Much of what he posts is BS, but I can see he has a great way with words and knows how to win people over.

[xorxes]

@bozo I see Vash’s reaction to the flip but I’m having trouble seeing exactly what’s so incriminating about it. Seems like a lame joke to me more than anything else.

Yes, Vash hasn’t posted much and could be lurky scum, but I haven’t seen anything from him that couldn’t come from town. I don’t think we should lynch outside of Teacon/Xorxes right now because if we mislynch today, and then guess wrong on Teacon/Xorxes, we’re putting ourselves at lylo, or WCS teac/xorx is TvT and we lose the game.

+1

[ND]

Not gonna lie though, scum getting cop and doc on their first two kills makes me think the scumteam includes either xorxes or bozo.

I worry the same thing. Big Truth right here.

[xorxes]

Not gonna lie though, scum getting cop and doc on their first two kills makes me think the scumteam includes either xorxes or bozo.

I worry the same thing. Big Truth right here.

Not an unreasonable thought, I admit I'm reasonably good at PR hunting.

I don't know about teacon's abilities in this area, but there's also an alternative explanation:

-If he wasn't going to kill me N1, bozo and rivera were the other two most obvious targets, so hitting the cop might have been luck.
-Espresso was the surest vote against teacon for today (besides mine).

[xorxes]

Something else to consider:

Vapor followed teacon's glorification of ND.
Flavius followed the "somoene is muddying the waters" schtick that teacon started pushing today.

Vapor and Flav both seemed very concerned about what may or may not be going on in the Mafia QT.

Flav seems to think that teacon talked about rdrivera leaving cop crumbs.

There's also other stuff that connects Vapor/Flav with teacon if you read carefully.

[xorxes]

Vote Count 1.4

ND (4) — damo666, EspressoPatronum, Durga, VashtaNeurotic
damo666 (4) — bozotheclown, rdrivera2005, xorxes, ND
Percy Williams (2) — Vaporwave, teacon7
Vaporwave (1) — MoscowFleet
Durga (1) — Percy Williams

It's disappointingly quiet rn.

In my experience, scum rarely pile on the same wagon at EoD. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen it happen. So look at this list and take notes.

@teacon, I think you never responded to this. What was it about this vote distribution (which seems pretty ordinary for half an hour before EOD) led you to make that comment? What did you want us to conclude from it?

(@bozo, did you check whether teacon ever saw scum piling on the same wagon at EOD? Seriuosly though, it seems quite unlikely given the number of EODs he must have seen.)

ND (4) — damo666, EspressoPatronum, Durga, VashtaNeurotic
damo666 (4) — bozotheclown, rdrivera2005, xorxes, ND
Percy Williams (2) — Vaporwave, teacon7
Vaporwave (1) — MoscowFleet
Durga (1) — Percy Williams

[bozotheclown]

@bozo I see Vash’s reaction to the flip but I’m having trouble seeing exactly what’s so incriminating about it. Seems like a lame joke to me more than anything else.

Yes, Vash hasn’t posted much and could be lurky scum, but I haven’t seen anything from him that couldn’t come from town. I don’t think we should lynch outside of Teacon/Xorxes right now because if we mislynch today, and then guess wrong on Teacon/Xorxes, we’re putting ourselves at lylo, or WCS teac/xorx is TvT and we lose the game.

I think Vashta's reaction is suspicious because it is contradictory to his actions at EOD, where he tried to save himself and get Durga lynched.

We lose the game only if Vashta, teacon, and xorxes are all town, something xorxes says is impossible. If we lynch Vashta, teacon, xorxes, and Flavius, we will win if the 2 scum are among those 4. Is there anyone else you currently would prefer to lynch before any of those 4?

[bozotheclown]

Vash is busy being confused by this day. Like, can someone lay out the teacon case for me as the one on Durga is very well...simple. EoD looks bad, was always on ND, etc.... Meanwhile the teacon on relies on believing he would set it up so he'd have to vote damo over ND in a game where the most important thing for scum is to just avoid getting lynched (since town only has 3 mislynches and there are only 3 mafia). But I'm not sure what the rest of the evidence is because I am mostly skimming posts and trying to absorb all the content from them (as it becomes more an more dense).

I have played several games with Vashta, and I think he was town in all of those games. From what I remember, he was never a high poster, but always put effort into trying to solve the game, and was often on the right track. Here he is saying he is confused, asking other players to explain things to him, and claiming he is not reading most of the posts. This is inconsistent with anything I remember about Vashta as town.

Can you point me to some game where Vashta put any effort early?

I don't really have a clear idea of how he plays, I only remember ghug saying how much he sucks, be he says that about a lot of people so I don't know how much weight we can put into it.

I will reread Vashta. I think he's been playing anti-town, but I haven't seen anything especially scummy from him other than lurking which is unfortunately not that AI around here.

I check some of his games and any game you look at that I was also in would be an example of him doing more than he has done this game.

[Percy Williams]

"Similar sounding" and "copied" is not the same thing though.

I didn't think it was as big a deal as you did. At the time, it looked like a nitpick. For all I knew, that could have been damo's voice too.

What's so bad about that?

In retrospect, it looks like damo respected you so much that he copied scum!phrasing from your last game.

You're and English teacher,

fwiw I'm an administrator who teaches Latin on the side, but w/e

you're probably the one person here that can detect when something is copied and when something is the same thought expressed in different ways. I can understand that people less attuned to language use can miss my point, but you dismissing it the way you did was the first red flag for me.

Each writer has a unique voice, so being able to recognize similarities like that often requires knowing their unique voices. I don't know damo, for all I know this could have been the way he would say something too.

I dismissed the intensity of your read on it, not the validity of the point. I wasn't the only one who thought so.

You can't be scumreading me for not having the same read as you d1. What did I say in response that looks scummy to you? Let's figure this out.

Liar.
You do know damo, quite well in fact because you said yourself you watched last game. We all saw you watching as well, you admitted in this game you saw it.
You know how damo played, you either choose to have blinders on, or knew he was your teammate.
I think your smarter than that, so he was your teammate.
You've been exposed.

Woah, You can't really get accurate reads on the complete writing style from one game. Calm down!

[ND]

I've played a lot with Vashta and yeah he is awful, but this game seems to line up with his scum game's at least in my mind's eye.

[bozotheclown]

If Vashta flips town, I think everyone should decide between you and teacon D4.

But you very possibly won't be here to enforce that.

Either Moscow or ND would have to be the enforcers. I don't think ND is up to it, he is too far into teacon's pocket. Moscow seems to be MIA.

If Vashta flips scum, maybe everyone will reevaluate.

It would surprise me enormously. The only case against Vashta is that he is playing like shit. Not alignment indicative.

Are you still sure Vashta is town after his reaction to the D2 flip?

Yes, it's the reaction of someone uninvested in the game.

What do you think of teacon's reaction after Espresso's flip? He forgot that he was scumreading me apparently.

That is a good point about teacon's reaction.

I disagree about your assessment of the case on Vashta. Beside not contributing much, he defended damo D1 when I was the only one voting for him and scum read me for it, possibly trying to discredit my vote for damo, and claimed he would have preferred getting lynched D2 after making an effort at EOD to get Durga lynched over himself.

[bozotheclown]

@xorxes: Also if I am not around D4 to push you and teacon as the wagons, that means you will be, so you can do it yourself. You should be able to get yourself lynched first if that is what it will take. You flipping town on D4 should be enough to get teacon lynched D5, and teacon flipping scum D5 should get Flavius lynched D6.

[FlaviusAetius]

Woah, You can't really get accurate reads on the complete writing style from one game. Calm down!

I didn't, it was a factor, and no piece of evidence alone is evidence indicative of something, but once you find a lot of those little pieces of evidence, it starts to add up

[VashtaNeurotic]

ND is part of most ppl's town core. He's as good as anyone to work with right now.

Not when it causes a 3 wide lynch. Also sheeping nd is not usually a good strategy.

Dammit guys. I was supposed to be the day 2 mislynch. You could've had another day of durga doing analysis instead of...whatever I'm doing (i assume i'm gonna be a major or counterwagon tomorrow though i missed a few votes near EoD that people seem to be talking about).

Vashta posted 10 times D2, 5 were in the last 30 minutes after ND vote made him a legitimate wagon, where he tried to discredit ND's vote. Then, after the flip, he claims he would have preferred being lynched over Durga. This is very inconsistent.

[][]VOTE VashtaNeurotic

Bozo...are you really taking that post as completely serious? I was not dissapointed that Durg was lynched, I was dissapointed that Durg flipped town. Like, she's just better at the game than me. Granted, it was in a very over the top manner that wasn't really direct, but like, come on lampshade hanging my relatively low content (and pretty poor early day record, I do usually get near the truth late game) while getting angry that I didn't die...when is that ever a serious post.

Also, Bozo, if I'm scum, I probably don't kill EP (doc role aside) mainly because he's the other ND voter that'd scum me would probably want to pin a wagon on. However, his flip has enlightened something to me (but only makes sense to you if you believe I'm town which you don't). So, 3/4 of the members of the ND wagon were town. The ND wagon was far and away the largest wagon yet with 16 hours to go, and several other wagons that were much smaller. So...how the fuck did damo get lynched, all the scum needed to do was pile on a vote or to for ND, or even just mark a preference for him.

There are 3 possibilities:
1. The mafia chose to bus the godfather day 1 over just...trying to hook onto the major wagon that's been going on all day (in which case I guess xorx is your prime candidate)
2. The mafia just wasn't around and was afk for EoD (in which case Percy or even emc makes sense)
3. No matter how they voted, a scum would go down. In which case, ND is scum and your prime candidate would be either teacon, emc or moscow. As teacon didn't vote until 15 minutes left with 4 on ND and 4 on damo, and emc didn't vote until 0:06 and Moscow with 0:02.

I think the third has the most crossover between most sense and viable wagons today. So I'm gonna ##voteteacon atm for that (and also durg was almost certain that teacon was scum and it being teacon and ND would uh...not be the craziest thing). Also going to reread and iso teacon/xorxes tomorrow as once again, it may actually be my last day.

Also I'm just gonna say it, ND's refusal to vote for teacon no matter what Day 2 and vote swap to me is bizarre. He put wagons 3 wide, meaning that a minority of votes had more power rather than a straight vote and it was right when durg might have been able to turn the tide onto teacon over her (and the day was near the end), but by throwing that on there it killed that idea a lot and threw the spotlight off of teacon and onto Durga + me. In fact by doing that ND indirectly caused all of the chaos in that last minute of EoD. So I don't think this is the craziest idea.

Of course, I doubt you will change your read on me, but remember it if I die.

[bozotheclown]

Not when it causes a 3 wide lynch. Also sheeping nd is not usually a good strategy.

Dammit guys. I was supposed to be the day 2 mislynch. You could've had another day of durga doing analysis instead of...whatever I'm doing (i assume i'm gonna be a major or counterwagon tomorrow though i missed a few votes near EoD that people seem to be talking about).

Vashta posted 10 times D2, 5 were in the last 30 minutes after ND vote made him a legitimate wagon, where he tried to discredit ND's vote. Then, after the flip, he claims he would have preferred being lynched over Durga. This is very inconsistent.

[][]VOTE VashtaNeurotic

Bozo...are you really taking that post as completely serious? I was not dissapointed that Durg was lynched, I was dissapointed that Durg flipped town. Like, she's just better at the game than me. Granted, it was in a very over the top manner that wasn't really direct, but like, come on lampshade hanging my relatively low content (and pretty poor early day record, I do usually get near the truth late game) while getting angry that I didn't die...when is that ever a serious post.

Also, Bozo, if I'm scum, I probably don't kill EP (doc role aside) mainly because he's the other ND voter that'd scum me would probably want to pin a wagon on. However, his flip has enlightened something to me (but only makes sense to you if you believe I'm town which you don't). So, 3/4 of the members of the ND wagon were town. The ND wagon was far and away the largest wagon yet with 16 hours to go, and several other wagons that were much smaller. So...how the fuck did damo get lynched, all the scum needed to do was pile on a vote or to for ND, or even just mark a preference for him.

There are 3 possibilities:
1. The mafia chose to bus the godfather day 1 over just...trying to hook onto the major wagon that's been going on all day (in which case I guess xorx is your prime candidate)
2. The mafia just wasn't around and was afk for EoD (in which case Percy or even emc makes sense)
3. No matter how they voted, a scum would go down. In which case, ND is scum and your prime candidate would be either teacon, emc or moscow. As teacon didn't vote until 15 minutes left with 4 on ND and 4 on damo, and emc didn't vote until 0:06 and Moscow with 0:02.

I think the third has the most crossover between most sense and viable wagons today. So I'm gonna ##voteteacon atm for that (and also durg was almost certain that teacon was scum and it being teacon and ND would uh...not be the craziest thing). Also going to reread and iso teacon/xorxes tomorrow as once again, it may actually be my last day.

Also I'm just gonna say it, ND's refusal to vote for teacon no matter what Day 2 and vote swap to me is bizarre. He put wagons 3 wide, meaning that a minority of votes had more power rather than a straight vote and it was right when durg might have been able to turn the tide onto teacon over her (and the day was near the end), but by throwing that on there it killed that idea a lot and threw the spotlight off of teacon and onto Durga + me. In fact by doing that ND indirectly caused all of the chaos in that last minute of EoD. So I don't think this is the craziest idea.

Of course, I doubt you will change your read on me, but remember it if I die.

Even presented as a joke, it is inconsistent with your effort to avoid getting lynched. Also, it seemed you were content to stay away as long as you were not a wagon.

If you think your third possibility is most likely, why not vote for ND instead of teacon?