France vs Austria Bot Challenge

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RoganJosh
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#21 Post by RoganJosh » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:04 am

goldfinger0303 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:25 am
Opening with the fleet to Spain is, competitively, almost never done. That's because the path to victory in the north there is slim if you commit that early and strong to the south. And always protect Burgundy.
I don't think there's anything wrong with opening Fleet Bre > MAO > Spain.
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goldfinger0303
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#22 Post by goldfinger0303 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:12 am

https://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=331938

(please ignore the loss...this is getting depressing)

Bot moved really, really well in this game until Autumn 1903. I'm not sure why Piedmont held there. Possibly to cover a move of Mar-GoL, Bur-Mar? I was going to critique the move to Warsaw, but looking back on it that extra build probably won Austria the game.

Similarly, Autumn 1905 the bot held Piedmont again. I think a tap would've been good there as well, as Gascony was highly unlikely to move to Marseilles, given the fleet in Spain. I again was going to critique not going for Marseilles and Naples (and thus the win) but...not tapping MAO would've given me a non-zero chance of having fleets in place to retake Tunis

But I mean, that's nit-picks. To me that was a near-flawless bot game.
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goldfinger0303
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#23 Post by goldfinger0303 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:12 am

RoganJosh wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:04 am
goldfinger0303 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:25 am
Opening with the fleet to Spain is, competitively, almost never done. That's because the path to victory in the north there is slim if you commit that early and strong to the south. And always protect Burgundy.
I don't think there's anything wrong with opening Fleet Bre > MAO > Spain.
You don't see it often
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jasnah
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#24 Post by jasnah » Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:05 am

I see and do it a lot, albeit I have never played 'competitively' so take it for what it's worth. But more to the point I'm certain that Bre-MAO-Spa is the theoretically strongest counter to all openings that send the fleet to Albania, which are played frequently at all levels of fva, so if people aren't going to Spa with the fleet very much maybe they should be doing it more.
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goldfinger0303
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#25 Post by goldfinger0303 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:47 am

So, I took a look back at the last champions league.

In the first round France opened to MAO 31 times, and won 10 times (me being one of the losses). This is out of 91 games. So, more common than I gave credit.

The final 3 rounds of the tournament (representing the top 8 players on the site) had France open to MAO 4 times, and win 3 of them. This is compared to opening to EC 10 times and winning 4. The sole loss came in a game where Austria opened to Venice.

So maybe I'm wrong here.
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goldfinger0303
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#26 Post by goldfinger0303 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:31 am

Very close game. Two end-game quips on the bot, and these are minor enough that I'll ask everyone's opinion.

http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=331959

A French player would realize fairly early on here that they're playing for a draw, not a win. I think the bot maneuvered extremely well except on 2 things.

1) I would have convoyed to Prussia
2) Venice in spring 1907 should have tapped Tyrolia and a play been made for Munich, instead of moving down into Rome in a spot where you can pretty easily be trapped and probably would retreat to anyways.

I just think a human player would've realized that "My plays are to peel one of Ber/Mun off, hold Tunis and go for St.P"

While Italy was an excellent delay of my win and the convoy was absolutely a good move, I think the focus should've been more on grabbing one of Berlin and Munich. Certainly Brest in 1907 should have been moving north to StP.

But the other humans here please let me know if you feel differently!
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jasnah
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#27 Post by jasnah » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:24 am

goldfinger0303 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:31 am
Very close game. Two end-game quips on the bot, and these are minor enough that I'll ask everyone's opinion.

http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=331959

A French player would realize fairly early on here that they're playing for a draw, not a win. I think the bot maneuvered extremely well except on 2 things.

1) I would have convoyed to Prussia
2) Venice in spring 1907 should have tapped Tyrolia and a play been made for Munich, instead of moving down into Rome in a spot where you can pretty easily be trapped and probably would retreat to anyways.

I just think a human player would've realized that "My plays are to peel one of Ber/Mun off, hold Tunis and go for St.P"

While Italy was an excellent delay of my win and the convoy was absolutely a good move, I think the focus should've been more on grabbing one of Berlin and Munich. Certainly Brest in 1907 should have been moving north to StP.

But the other humans here please let me know if you feel differently!
Well he missed the standard continuation all the way back in A01, this is a lot weaker than going to Tyrolia and Belgium. Very hard to play from that opening with one build and the French position looks destroyed by end of 02, so yeah, I think the bot could have done a lot differently.
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Swede03
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#28 Post by Swede03 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:23 pm

Would it be possible to have an option on the FvA page to choose which bot to play against?
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Polynoamial
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#29 Post by Polynoamial » Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:01 pm

tsvi14 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:33 am
Awesome!!

I have one question - a tactic some diplomacy players use, when the games aren't anonymous, is looking into a player's past games on the site and trying to divine some of their past tactical behavior in order to better predict that of the future. Is the bot doing this?
The bot doesn't look at its opponent's past games. It's just trying to compute a Nash equilibrium (like previous bots for chess, go, and poker).
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President Eden
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#30 Post by President Eden » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:32 pm

Pray I don't misorder y'all - a win for human France is all but locked up if I don't blow it.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=332038
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Peregrine Falcon
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#31 Post by Peregrine Falcon » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:36 pm

President Eden wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:32 pm
Pray I don't misorder y'all - a win for human France is all but locked up if I don't blow it.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=332038
I'd be very impressed if you managed to blow that. :razz:
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#32 Post by CptMike » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:38 pm

I find Fairplay plays well but would not win significantly often against players among the top 10 ghost ranking. I would suggest a place is kept for this bot at next tournament, just to see.

The bot has some strange movements, which I have already seen among some top players but it is as if it would not play them at the right time.
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President Eden
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#33 Post by President Eden » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:42 pm

Peregrine Falcon wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:36 pm
President Eden wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:32 pm
Pray I don't misorder y'all - a win for human France is all but locked up if I don't blow it.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=332038
I'd be very impressed if you managed to blow that. :razz:
LMAO I DID IT

RIP
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Peregrine Falcon
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#34 Post by Peregrine Falcon » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:18 pm

President Eden wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:42 pm
Peregrine Falcon wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:36 pm
President Eden wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:32 pm
Pray I don't misorder y'all - a win for human France is all but locked up if I don't blow it.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=332038
I'd be very impressed if you managed to blow that. :razz:
LMAO I DID IT

RIP
Alright, I am impressed. Good work! :razz: :lol:
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goldfinger0303
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#35 Post by goldfinger0303 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:31 pm

I'll count that as a win in spirit, Eden. Good job.
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RoganJosh
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#36 Post by RoganJosh » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:47 pm

President Eden wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:42 pm
LMAO I DID IT
LOL.

But that counts as a French win. Well done!

Regarding 'superhuman,' I don't think FvA is sufficiently complex. The best humans already play fairly close to optimums. You might have better luck trying it with Cold War, which is more chaotic.

I just started my first game, but I'll play it slow. There is an obvious weakness, though, visible already in the fact that the bot plays the same opening every time. As Austria, it played the Italian (Boh) opening the first couple of hours, before the 'bug' was fixed, and now it plays Anti-Alpine (Rum). Faced with the Waffle, it always builds (A Tri, A Vie). Don't get me wrong, these are good choices. But it doesn't matter if the choices you make are good if they are easy to predict.

Its play as France is less convincing.
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teccles
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#37 Post by teccles » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:53 pm

I think FairBot has stalled? It hasn't played moves in my game in the last hour.
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jmo1121109
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#38 Post by jmo1121109 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:21 pm

teccles wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:53 pm
I think FairBot has stalled? It hasn't played moves in my game in the last hour.
Thanks, I just brought it up to the team there, should have an update on that soon. Please pause any game before it reaches the turn end if you see it getting close.
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jmo1121109
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#39 Post by jmo1121109 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:22 pm

jmo1121109 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:21 pm
teccles wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:53 pm
I think FairBot has stalled? It hasn't played moves in my game in the last hour.
Thanks, I just brought it up to the team there, should have an update on that soon. Please pause any game before it reaches the turn end if you see it getting close.
And already got a reply, they are active working on fixing it.
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kestasjk
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Re: France vs Austria Bot Challenge

#40 Post by kestasjk » Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:24 pm

I wonder if any other sites out there work with a top tier team of AI experts to help them train their AI on our gaming server? Neat stuff
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