Jesus was a Socialist

[sweetandcool]

You're all stark raving mad.

Maybe if you put more thought and effort into making things better and helping people here in the real world, and less time participating in your cult and telling each other how much you love the invisible sky daddy, humanity would have a chance.

You're making a lot of assumptions Jamiet. E.g. I don't make the assumption that you aren't trying to be a good person. Why are you assuming I am crazy and not trying to make the world a better place?

[Napple]

You're all stark raving mad.

Maybe if you put more thought and effort into making things better and helping people here in the real world, and less time participating in your cult and telling each other how much you love the invisible sky daddy, humanity would have a chance.

I don't have the time to go back and find all the data at this particular moment, but in both recent and distant history, Christianity has proven to have a wide array of societal benefits, such as advances in education and healthcare (think universities like Yale and Harvard when they were first founded, or those massive hospitals with "Saint" in the name). When Christians honestly work together in Christ's name, wonderful, tangible things happen in the world.

For someone who is so vocal about wanting data and/or concrete nonreligious arguments, that's a pretty mindless potshot at Christianity. Part of the reason we participate in what you call a cult is to encourage and support one another to go out and help people in the world. How do you lift up your neighbors and community? Do you have a place or method that allows you to encourage them and hold them accountable to their actions where they can do the same for you? If you're going to imply we're wasting our time with all this, you'd better have an alternative to suggest that's more complex than "Go out there and be nice."

[Pengwinja]

You're all stark raving mad.

Maybe if you put more thought and effort into making things better and helping people here in the real world, and less time participating in your cult and telling each other how much you love the invisible sky daddy, humanity would have a chance.

“Sky daddy”, as you call him, does say to try and make the world a better place. In fact, there is many verses that talk about helping others, and I think that humanity counts as others. No matter what we do, though, the world will always be imperfect, and I think most people should know that, no matter what they believe. What do you define as a cult? What makes us fit that definition?

[learnedSloth]

What do you think it means to put God in all aspects of your life? What does it mean to you that "he shall direct thy paths"?

For example:

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. -- John 14:27

This peace can serve as a traffic light.

Are you saying that this means that Christians are commanded to take over the world?

That seems unnecessary:

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. -- Matthew 28:18

[sweetandcool]

What do you think it means to put God in all aspects of your life? What does it mean to you that "he shall direct thy paths"?

For example:

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. -- John 14:27

This peace can serve as a traffic light.

Are you saying that this means that Christians are commanded to take over the world?

That seems unnecessary:

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. -- Matthew 28:18

Could you explain what you are trying to say about peace serving as a traffic light?

I didn't think it was unnecessary. Esquire was expressing surprise that we weren't advocating for world domination by Christians (or at least that's what I would interpret a call for Christians to control government).

Pengwinja said, "You're right". So I wanted them to elaborate.

[Pengwinja]

What do you think it means to put God in all aspects of your life? What does it mean to you that "he shall direct thy paths"?

For example:

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. -- John 14:27

This peace can serve as a traffic light.

Are you saying that this means that Christians are commanded to take over the world?

That seems unnecessary:

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. -- Matthew 28:18

Could you explain what you are trying to say about peace serving as a traffic light?

I didn't think it was unnecessary. Esquire was expressing surprise that we weren't advocating for world domination by Christians (or at least that's what I would interpret a call for Christians to control government).

Pengwinja said, "You're right". So I wanted them to elaborate.

Right in the sense that God should be in every aspect of our lives, I didn’t mean anything about world domination. “Direct thy paths” could be translated to “Direct your actions”, as the Bible (and other texts) refer to your actions as the path you are going down. The Bible doesn’t command people to take control of the world.

Does this help?

[learnedSloth]

What do you think it means to put God in all aspects of your life? What does it mean to you that "he shall direct thy paths"?

For example:

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. -- John 14:27

This peace can serve as a traffic light.

Could you explain what you are trying to say about peace serving as a traffic light?

His peace is such that noticing its disappearance has stopping power.

[Jamiet99uk]

You're all stark raving mad.

Maybe if you put more thought and effort into making things better and helping people here in the real world, and less time participating in your cult and telling each other how much you love the invisible sky daddy, humanity would have a chance.

You're making a lot of assumptions Jamiet. E.g. I don't make the assumption that you aren't trying to be a good person. Why are you assuming I am crazy and not trying to make the world a better place?

You've made it clear that's not one of your top priorities. Your main priority is praising God and spouting off about the Bible.

[sweetandcool]

You're all stark raving mad.

Maybe if you put more thought and effort into making things better and helping people here in the real world, and less time participating in your cult and telling each other how much you love the invisible sky daddy, humanity would have a chance.

You're making a lot of assumptions Jamiet. E.g. I don't make the assumption that you aren't trying to be a good person. Why are you assuming I am crazy and not trying to make the world a better place?

You've made it clear that's not one of your top priorities. Your main priority is praising God and spouting off about the Bible.

Are you mixing me up with somebody else?

[Jamiet99uk]

You're all stark raving mad.

Maybe if you put more thought and effort into making things better and helping people here in the real world, and less time participating in your cult and telling each other how much you love the invisible sky daddy, humanity would have a chance.

I don't have the time to go back and find all the data at this particular moment, but in both recent and distant history, Christianity has proven to have a wide array of societal benefits, such as advances in education and healthcare (think universities like Yale and Harvard when they were first founded, or those massive hospitals with "Saint" in the name). When Christians honestly work together in Christ's name, wonderful, tangible things happen in the world.

For someone who is so vocal about wanting data and/or concrete nonreligious arguments, that's a pretty mindless potshot at Christianity. Part of the reason we participate in what you call a cult is to encourage and support one another to go out and help people in the world. How do you lift up your neighbors and community? Do you have a place or method that allows you to encourage them and hold them accountable to their actions where they can do the same for you? If you're going to imply we're wasting our time with all this, you'd better have an alternative to suggest that's more complex than "Go out there and be nice."

Hospitals should be provided by the state and fully funded through taxation.

As for what I'm doing, I believe it is through society acting collectively that we can best improve things for everyone. I devote quite a bit of my spare time to actively campaign for a better democracy, and for progressive social and environmental policies. I was a member of my local community council for a number of years, and on a more personal basis, I raise money for a number of charities (although in the knowledge that some of the charitable work I support is filling in gaps created by a lack of effective state provision).

Last year most of my own fundraising was targeted at The Samaritans*, a charity that helps people contemplating suicide, because a number of years ago I was in that place myself and a friend, who coincidentally happened to be a Samaritans volunteer, noticed I was in a particularly dark place, and saved my life.

I am also an active member of my trade union and work to support their campaigns for stronger workforce rights and better pay. I am pleased to be able to report that a few years ago, at my suggestion and following considerable efforts to persuade our Executive Committee and our Board, the civil service organisation I work for became a certified Living Wage Employer, working with the UK Living Wage Foundation. For our workforce, that was a very small matter, because all of our staff were already paid above the real Living Wage rate, but for several hundred people working for some of our major suppliers, they directly received a pay rise, and better pay protection on an ongoing basis, as a result of this Real Living Wage pledge.

*and yes I am well aware of the irony of the origins of the name of this organisation, given my views on Christianity.

[Crazy Anglican]

Perhaps the title should have been Socialist Ideals are the foundational teachings of Christ.

Perhaps you've got that one backwards, but there is no harm in making the argument.

[Pengwinja]

You're all stark raving mad.

Maybe if you put more thought and effort into making things better and helping people here in the real world, and less time participating in your cult and telling each other how much you love the invisible sky daddy, humanity would have a chance.

I don't have the time to go back and find all the data at this particular moment, but in both recent and distant history, Christianity has proven to have a wide array of societal benefits, such as advances in education and healthcare (think universities like Yale and Harvard when they were first founded, or those massive hospitals with "Saint" in the name). When Christians honestly work together in Christ's name, wonderful, tangible things happen in the world.

For someone who is so vocal about wanting data and/or concrete nonreligious arguments, that's a pretty mindless potshot at Christianity. Part of the reason we participate in what you call a cult is to encourage and support one another to go out and help people in the world. How do you lift up your neighbors and community? Do you have a place or method that allows you to encourage them and hold them accountable to their actions where they can do the same for you? If you're going to imply we're wasting our time with all this, you'd better have an alternative to suggest that's more complex than "Go out there and be nice."

Hospitals should be provided by the state and fully funded through taxation.

As for what I'm doing, I believe it is through society acting collectively that we can best improve things for everyone. I devote quite a bit of my spare time to actively campaign for a better democracy, and for progressive social and environmental policies. I was a member of my local community council for a number of years, and on a more personal basis, I raise money for a number of charities (although in the knowledge that some of the charitable work I support is filling in gaps created by a lack of effective state provision).

Last year most of my own fundraising was targeted at The Samaritans*, a charity that helps people contemplating suicide, because a number of years ago I was in that place myself and a friend, who coincidentally happened to be a Samaritans volunteer, noticed I was in a particularly dark place, and saved my life.

I am also an active member of my trade union and work to support their campaigns for stronger workforce rights and better pay. I am pleased to be able to report that a few years ago, at my suggestion and following considerable efforts to persuade our Executive Committee and our Board, the civil service organisation I work for became a certified Living Wage Employer, working with the UK Living Wage Foundation. For our workforce, that was a very small matter, because all of our staff were already paid above the real Living Wage rate, but for several hundred people working for some of our major suppliers, they directly received a pay rise, and better pay protection on an ongoing basis, as a result of this Real Living Wage pledge.

*and yes I am well aware of the irony of the origins of the name of this organisation, given my views on Christianity.

I think that these are great things to do! I try and do these things, but with age and such I cannot.

[Napple]

Hospitals should be provided by the state and fully funded through taxation.

As for what I'm doing, I believe it is through society acting collectively that we can best improve things for everyone. I devote quite a bit of my spare time to actively campaign for a better democracy, and for progressive social and environmental policies. I was a member of my local community council for a number of years, and on a more personal basis, I raise money for a number of charities (although in the knowledge that some of the charitable work I support is filling in gaps created by a lack of effective state provision).

Last year most of my own fundraising was targeted at The Samaritans*, a charity that helps people contemplating suicide, because a number of years ago I was in that place myself and a friend, who coincidentally happened to be a Samaritans volunteer, noticed I was in a particularly dark place, and saved my life.

I am also an active member of my trade union and work to support their campaigns for stronger workforce rights and better pay. I am pleased to be able to report that a few years ago, at my suggestion and following considerable efforts to persuade our Executive Committee and our Board, the civil service organisation I work for became a certified Living Wage Employer, working with the UK Living Wage Foundation. For our workforce, that was a very small matter, because all of our staff were already paid above the real Living Wage rate, but for several hundred people working for some of our major suppliers, they directly received a pay rise, and better pay protection on an ongoing basis, as a result of this Real Living Wage pledge.

*and yes I am well aware of the irony of the origins of the name of this organisation, given my views on Christianity.

NOVEL INCOMING

TL;DR - I think our core beliefs regarding the nature of mankind are at odds here, so there can't be a proper conclusion, but in the end, we both want to take care of the people in our communities and improve our world in tangible ways.

I've been out in the world for a bit so now I'm echoing Pengwinja, but I also think that is all excellent.

Regarding the bit about those certain hospitals, my point was that they were pretty clearly a net good for society (at the time) that was created by Christians doing what they thought would help their world. I am not saying those hospitals are good (or moral) institutions now. I am vehemently opposed to privatized healthcare.

Regarding the rest of it, it is wonderful that you practice as you preach. There are many who claim to be Christians who are not the same way. I was like that myself until a recent change in my life that pushed me to become more involved in my community and its well-being.

That said, I obviously still disagree about Christianity being a waste of time. In the spirit of a proper debate, I will set aside the main focus of the faith for a moment, that being that we practice our religion to achieve salvation through Jesus Christ and are tasked with sharing that blessing with others. I think it's likely at least one fellow Christian on here won't like that, but I am also confident that leaning on it for this discussion will lead to you disengaging.

I think what it comes down to is a fundamental belief about the nature of man. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I am assuming that you believe mankind is, on the whole, good (or potentially neutral/amoral in some sense). I say this because you say the best way to improve things for everyone is for society to act collectively. If collective action throughout a society is the best method for improvement, then this society needs to be able to be, at least in a general sense, good and fair and just (or at least have the capability to be moved about on a spectrum of good and evil). By extension, this means that the individual members of this good society need to be good and at least somewhat selfless themselves. Assuming there is no God, the citizens need to be this way of their own volition, motivated solely by their will and the social/political/cultural/etc. environment around them. This is where my issue arises.

Based on my personal experiences, understanding of history, and, yes, from what I have learned from the Bible, I believe mankind is evil at its core. Evil is the natural, easy status that man trends towards, so a good man is one who has rebelled against his nature and put in a massive amount of work to become something different. Yes, I believe Christ is a key part of that, but Christ or not, I firmly believe becoming "good" is a subtle, gradual, never-ending process of change that requires constant effort.

Before anyone else brings it up, yes, saying "good and evil" is vague and subjective if you don't have a biblical foundation, but I am sticking to my resolution and will not go into that this particular minute. I hope you all can get on board with my usage of the generic, modern idea of good and evil.

Because of this belief that man is evil, I think that the best way for mankind to improve is for it to be called upon by something higher and more important than itself, something that demands you to go beyond your base nature and strive for something more. Sadly, I don't believe that society (or the public good, if you prefer) is a high enough or important enough value to sway the group as a whole away from that selfish nature. At the end of the day, I agree that collective action is what needs to be done, but I don't think people can hold it together and execute it properly for its own sake for an extended period of time.

That's (one of the reasons) why Christianity is not a waste of time. It is the motivator and guidance needed to achieve that collective action you and I are talking about.

If I haven't totally misunderstood you (and again, please correct me if I have), that's what it comes down to, and because of that fundamental disagreement, I don't think we are going to find a satisfying middle ground on this subject.

One last note I'd like to emphasize is that I am talking about humanity as a whole. I have intentionally made no implications about you based on your beliefs. We're both out there trying to take care of the people in our world, and that is undeniably a good thing. :)

[CaptainFritz28]

You're all stark raving mad.

Maybe if you put more thought and effort into making things better and helping people here in the real world, and less time participating in your cult and telling each other how much you love the invisible sky daddy, humanity would have a chance.

You're making a lot of assumptions Jamiet. E.g. I don't make the assumption that you aren't trying to be a good person. Why are you assuming I am crazy and not trying to make the world a better place?

You've made it clear that's not one of your top priorities. Your main priority is praising God and spouting off about the Bible.

Based on what? Their activity on this forum? I'm sorry that I rescued no orphans from starvation through my messages here. What sort of baseless assumption is that? I would've thought even you could do better.

[Jamiet99uk]

Hospitals should be provided by the state and fully funded through taxation.

As for what I'm doing, I believe it is through society acting collectively that we can best improve things for everyone. I devote quite a bit of my spare time to actively campaign for a better democracy, and for progressive social and environmental policies. I was a member of my local community council for a number of years, and on a more personal basis, I raise money for a number of charities (although in the knowledge that some of the charitable work I support is filling in gaps created by a lack of effective state provision).

Last year most of my own fundraising was targeted at The Samaritans*, a charity that helps people contemplating suicide, because a number of years ago I was in that place myself and a friend, who coincidentally happened to be a Samaritans volunteer, noticed I was in a particularly dark place, and saved my life.

I am also an active member of my trade union and work to support their campaigns for stronger workforce rights and better pay. I am pleased to be able to report that a few years ago, at my suggestion and following considerable efforts to persuade our Executive Committee and our Board, the civil service organisation I work for became a certified Living Wage Employer, working with the UK Living Wage Foundation. For our workforce, that was a very small matter, because all of our staff were already paid above the real Living Wage rate, but for several hundred people working for some of our major suppliers, they directly received a pay rise, and better pay protection on an ongoing basis, as a result of this Real Living Wage pledge.

*and yes I am well aware of the irony of the origins of the name of this organisation, given my views on Christianity.

NOVEL INCOMING

TL;DR - I think our core beliefs regarding the nature of mankind are at odds here, so there can't be a proper conclusion, but in the end, we both want to take care of the people in our communities and improve our world in tangible ways.

I've been out in the world for a bit so now I'm echoing Pengwinja, but I also think that is all excellent.

Regarding the bit about those certain hospitals, my point was that they were pretty clearly a net good for society (at the time) that was created by Christians doing what they thought would help their world. I am not saying those hospitals are good (or moral) institutions now. I am vehemently opposed to privatized healthcare.

Regarding the rest of it, it is wonderful that you practice as you preach. There are many who claim to be Christians who are not the same way. I was like that myself until a recent change in my life that pushed me to become more involved in my community and its well-being.

That said, I obviously still disagree about Christianity being a waste of time. In the spirit of a proper debate, I will set aside the main focus of the faith for a moment, that being that we practice our religion to achieve salvation through Jesus Christ and are tasked with sharing that blessing with others. I think it's likely at least one fellow Christian on here won't like that, but I am also confident that leaning on it for this discussion will lead to you disengaging.

I think what it comes down to is a fundamental belief about the nature of man. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I am assuming that you believe mankind is, on the whole, good (or potentially neutral/amoral in some sense). I say this because you say the best way to improve things for everyone is for society to act collectively. If collective action throughout a society is the best method for improvement, then this society needs to be able to be, at least in a general sense, good and fair and just (or at least have the capability to be moved about on a spectrum of good and evil). By extension, this means that the individual members of this good society need to be good and at least somewhat selfless themselves. Assuming there is no God, the citizens need to be this way of their own volition, motivated solely by their will and the social/political/cultural/etc. environment around them. This is where my issue arises.

Based on my personal experiences, understanding of history, and, yes, from what I have learned from the Bible, I believe mankind is evil at its core. Evil is the natural, easy status that man trends towards, so a good man is one who has rebelled against his nature and put in a massive amount of work to become something different. Yes, I believe Christ is a key part of that, but Christ or not, I firmly believe becoming "good" is a subtle, gradual, never-ending process of change that requires constant effort.

Before anyone else brings it up, yes, saying "good and evil" is vague and subjective if you don't have a biblical foundation, but I am sticking to my resolution and will not go into that this particular minute. I hope you all can get on board with my usage of the generic, modern idea of good and evil.

Because of this belief that man is evil, I think that the best way for mankind to improve is for it to be called upon by something higher and more important than itself, something that demands you to go beyond your base nature and strive for something more. Sadly, I don't believe that society (or the public good, if you prefer) is a high enough or important enough value to sway the group as a whole away from that selfish nature. At the end of the day, I agree that collective action is what needs to be done, but I don't think people can hold it together and execute it properly for its own sake for an extended period of time.

That's (one of the reasons) why Christianity is not a waste of time. It is the motivator and guidance needed to achieve that collective action you and I are talking about.

If I haven't totally misunderstood you (and again, please correct me if I have), that's what it comes down to, and because of that fundamental disagreement, I don't think we are going to find a satisfying middle ground on this subject.

One last note I'd like to emphasize is that I am talking about humanity as a whole. I have intentionally made no implications about you based on your beliefs. We're both out there trying to take care of the people in our world, and that is undeniably a good thing. :)

Your comments on the fundamental nature of man are very interesting.

Yes, ultimately, I believe that there are good people and bad people, but, on average (and bearing in mind we are talking about the average good / evil balance of a sample of 8.1 billion individuals), I believe that the average human is more good than bad; I believe that the average person wants a nice life for themselves, but also wants good lives for their families, for those, around them, and for their community and society.

We are naturally social animals, we gain joy from interactions with others, and we experience joy when we see other people being happy. On a very general level it is clear to me that we are naturally altruistic; while humans do selfish things, humans also frequently perform helpful acts for others, for no personal gain. I believe that humanity can, and must, harness this sociability for the collective good. Society, a mass of unique individuals pulling together, is the basis for progress and happiness.

It is interesting that you, a Christian, believe humans are fundamentally evil. It seems to me, therefore, that your worldview is much more negative than mine. I give man the benefit of the doubt; I assume good and only pronounce evil when I see it. You assume evil rely on an outside force (Jesus) for salvation. This is a negative worldview. Your first act is to damn your fellow man, and everything else you think (I purport), stems from there.

I am not even going to go into the question of why an all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-loving God, putting into practice a perfect design, would design and create man in his own image, and in the process manage to create a version of mankind that is, in your words "fundamentally evil at its core". This does not make logical sense to me, and it never has.

[Pengwinja]

I am not even going to go into the question of why an all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-loving God, putting into practice a perfect design, would design and create man in his own image, and in the process manage to create a version of mankind that is, in your words "fundamentally evil at its core". This does not make logical sense to me, and it never has.

Remember the Forbidden fruit story? It’s known pretty worldwide, but usually it doesn’t tell WHY God made the tree, and humanity in the first place. Because love. That is literally why. Let me use an example, if you will. If I create a robot, it cannot love me, or feel any emotion towards me. If I program it to say it does feel emotion, it does not. God made humans with a choice, love God, or reject God. God did say there would be consequences if they did eat the fruit, and there was.

People are sinners, but not incapable of doing good things, as we are still made in God’s image. As an example, a non-Christian judge can still discern what is bad, because almost everyone has an inner sense of Justice.

Does this help?

[Jamiet99uk]

I am not even going to go into the question of why an all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-loving God, putting into practice a perfect design, would design and create man in his own image, and in the process manage to create a version of mankind that is, in your words "fundamentally evil at its core". This does not make logical sense to me, and it never has.

Remember the Forbidden fruit story? It’s known pretty worldwide, but usually it doesn’t tell WHY God made the tree, and humanity in the first place. Because love. That is literally why. Let me use an example, if you will. If I create a robot, it cannot love me, or feel any emotion towards me. If I program it to say it does feel emotion, it does not. God made humans with a choice, love God, or reject God. God did say there would be consequences if they did eat the fruit, and there was.

People are sinners, but not incapable of doing good things, as we are still made in God’s image. As an example, a non-Christian judge can still discern what is bad, because almost everyone has an inner sense of Justice.

Does this help?

Nope, it is absolute stark raving bonkers madness, mate.

If God can decide that a baby is born evil, God can decide that a baby is born good.

[Jamiet99uk]

To go to your robot example, the difference between you, and the God you claim exists, is that you claim your God is all powerful. You cannot make a robot capable of love, but surely God can? If he cannot, then he is not as powerful as you claim.

[MajorMitchell]

Pengwinja's "forbidden fruit" post finished with an assertion about the non Judea Christian influenced judge having an "inner sense of what is right and what is wrong", with inference that is a result of being created by God.
The "even the person who rejects God, if they have goodness in them OT is placed there by God their creator" fallacy.
Concluded with a patronising "does this help?"

Wake up dopey Pengwinja,

Is it conceivable to your ideologically blinkered mind that sheer fkn intelligence in homo sapiens has enabled humanist ethics to provide the non Judea Christian influenced for judge or any person to decide what is acceptable and what is not in a civilised society.

Your perpetual failing is your desperate need to have your particular God at the centre of all good things.
Insist on the exclusive existence of your chosen God and deny the existence of any other gods.. now that is a feat of self delusion of impressive proportions in my opinion

Does that help sweetypie?

[learnedSloth]

Your perpetual failing is your desperate need to have your particular God at the centre of all good things.

Attributing dissent to intellectual dishonesty makes blind.