Forgiveness is a matter of eternal life and death

[Octavious]

My point was that your personal interpretation of what an acceptable baptism is isn't necessarily an interpretation that was commonly held in the time period

Possibly so, although truth be told I couldn't care less

I brought up modern examples of late baptism to highlight that different Christian denominations have different ideas of how baptism works and what is an acceptable and valid baptism.

Indeed, and late baptism and death bed baptism are very different things

When Constantine was baptized, many Roman christians waited to get baptized until later in life, he was far from unique in trying this "loophole"

So?

Also, it would seem a bit weird that a canonized saint (at least in the Eastern Orthodox Church) has a "special place in hell".

You reckon? If hell exists I dare say it's full of saints. A lot of them were absolute arseholes.

[Crazy Anglican]

Jesus wants us to forgive everybody:

https://thebrickbible.com/onenemies/

That’s an epistle you’re referencing not a Gospel, so it’s Paul on forgiveness not Jesus on forgiveness. If you want to have that discussion, I might find some time to get around to it, but let’s dispense with the false attribution since the OP was talking about Jesus and not Paul.

https://web.archive.org/web/20221006110 ... 6_37a.html

Yes, it’s not easy. Sometimes it is even contrary to a country’s national interests. Still, we are called to do it. So that really doesn’t do anything to exclude anyone from forgiveness.

Except a fig tree, our entire family, homosexuals, etc.:
https://thebrickbible.com/jesuscursesatree/

Fig tree, yeah, I don’t find it too unsettling that Jesus cursed a tree. It is a story telling us to bear fruit and not waste the gifts God has given us. I am not sure how it relates to forgiveness. Even if you take it absolutely literally, you’ve never cut down a tree? I have, it wasn’t out of spite. It seems like if anything this was a teachable moment for the disciples, “Live life to your fullest, or you risk withering and dying”.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200225133 ... 12_51.html

Here is the passage that is referenced above:

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.”

Yes, if nothing else Jesus was here to change things, and by all accounts that is exactly what He did. Yet, It doesn’t actually say anything about failing to forgive, nor about being violent towards anyone does it?

As a matter of fact, Rev. Martin Luther King said something similar:

“We must see the need of having nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men to rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood.”

Likewise in Gandhi’s work (Nonviolence in Peace and War, vol II) He states the following about Jesus

"What does Jesus mean to me? To me, he was one of the greatest teachers humanity has ever had."6 "Jesus lived and died in vain if He did not teach us to regulate the whole of life by the eternal law of love.".7

"Jesus, a man who was completely innocent, offered himself as a sacrifice for the good of others, including his enemies, and became the ransom of the world. It was a perfect act."8

"Jesus was the most active resister known perhaps to history. His was non-violence par excellence."9

"Jesus expressed as no other could the spirit and will of God. It is in this sense that I see him and recognize as the Son of God. And because the life of Jesus has the significance and the transcendence to which I have alluded, I believe that he belongs not solely to Christianity but to the entire world, to all races and people. It matters little under what flag, name or doctrine they may work, profess a faith or worship a God inherited from their ancestors."10

The Brick Testament clip, however, goes right into “turning against” and portrays it as murdering. I think though that Dr. King was familiar with the same passage and seems to have read it to mean create tension so that we can effect nonviolent change. Gandhi seems to agree. When the chips were down, and Jesus’s life was on the line, he admonished Peter to not use violence, and even healed the high priest’s servant whom Peter had injured. Which seems pretty forgiving since the guys were there to take Him away humiliate, torture, and kill Him.

Likewise, there is nothing above that states “Do not forgive”. Earlier in the same chapter (Mathew 10:8) Jesus instructs his disciples to go out and “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.” Which doesn’t sound like a person who was harboring or inciting hatred toward people in general, much less family members.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200223173 ... 05_17.html

Again, Jesus affirms the Law to be a good thing, but warns that it is not enough (you must be more righteous than the experts in the Law). It is He, Jesus Christ, who fulfills the Law, and He says to forgive our enemies and not to judge. If you go back to Matthew 10 it ends with “If you give even a glass of cold water to these little ones … surely you will not lose your reward.” Which sounds pretty forgiving to me.

I guess if you want to look at somebody’s Lego diorama and say “Ah HA! I’ve found the true nature of Christ!” That’s on you, but I feel more comfortable looking at recent figures in history who have used Christ as an inspiration for their successful and nonviolent social change. If nothing else, Jesus seems to have changed lots of things and to have done so nonviolently.

[Doom427]

I assume this thread is a bit of subliminal messaging? We all are trying to get on the good side of someone we just stabbed so we're trying to keep this thread title on the top of the home page?

[MajorMitchell]

The way Christianity, Islam & other religions use the concept of Forgiveneds is most interesting fodfer for contemplation.
The basic model is, declare certain behaviours sinful & create guilt which needs absolution via confession & repentance, acts of penance, donation to a church which is handy for wealthy sinners, etc to gain forgiveness.

The need for forgiveness is sold to victims on the basis of a reward/punishment strategy.
It relies on people believing the declarations that certain behaviours are sinful & the rest of the jazz especially the Eternal reward / punishment propositions.

So devout chaps adoring the Christian or Islamic God should commit a modest amount of sins and a slightly greater amount of good deeds, then consult their chosen representative of their chosen God for guidance through the repentance of sins & forgiveness procedures applicable.
I cannot in good concience recommend any religious faith to.women.

[Crazy Anglican]

The way Christianity, Islam & other religions use the concept of Forgiveneds is most interesting fodfer for contemplation.

Maybe, let's see were this is heading anyway.

The basic model is, declare certain behaviours sinful & create guilt which needs absolution via confession & repentance, acts of penance, donation to a church which is handy for wealthy sinners, etc to gain forgiveness.

That's the spirit, I tell ya! Anarchy! Why should the bloke from down the road feel guilty for rapin' and pillagin'?

The need for forgiveness is sold to victims on the basis of a reward/punishment strategy.
It relies on people believing the declarations that certain behaviours are sinful & the rest of the jazz especially the Eternal reward / punishment propositions.

Because no act is evil, in and of itself, without a religion labelling it a sin, right?

So devout chaps adoring the Christian or Islamic God should commit a modest amount of sins and a slightly greater amount of good deeds, then consult their chosen representative of their chosen God for guidance through the repentance of sins & forgiveness procedures applicable.

Wait a minute, Jesus died two millenia ago. I'm having to pay the bill, now? After redemption? I think you may have something backward, at least where Christianity is concerned. I don't know of any successful model that gives you everything up front and then expects you to pay. Look at American Health System for how that works out. That alone would be a miracle if it worked, or maybe, there is something else at play here? Anyway, the transactional model is pretty glib, but I don't think it holds water too well.

I cannot in good concience recommend any religious faith to.women.

I dunno, seems to work for Mrs. Anglican.

[MajorMitchell]

Dear Crazy Anglican,
There is no need for Gods or Religions in the processes by which we decide what are Lawful &/or good behaviours and what behaviours are Not Lawful and/or Bad in order to have Civil Societies in which people behave ethically with compassion.
Your use of "Guilty for Raping & Pillaging" & "Evil" suggests we can only judge acts in a religious context to determine if they are good or bad, that's very limited thinking imho.
You misunderstand, or misrepresent my comments with your "..i'm having to.pay the bill (for redemption) now After redemption..." discordant jazz
I clearly described the forgiveness process in simple terms, so i reiterate with a touch of elaboration..
Confession, acts of penance & repentance., donations to the Church, Obeisance to.the God etc etc as proscribed by respective priest, iman, representative of the particular chosen God.. THEN Forgiveness

I did not suggest Forgiveness is free, i clearly suggested the antithesis, that there is a COST for Forgiveness extracted by the particular church/religion on it's sinful adherents.
Your imaginitive rabbithole of American Health systems & forgiveness is a non sequitur of irrelevance imho.

If a chap signs up for this religious belief caper with the need to gain forgiveness for sins for an Eternal reward then it is obvipus that chap needs to commit sins in order to go through the confession, penance, repentance, forgiveness process to gain the Eternal reward.
Tis all hypothetical if a chap is fortunate enough to be a descendant of Savvy Medieval Religious Investors who donated lands & wealth, schlepped off on Crusades to slaughter Infidels to aquire Principalities in the Christian Kingdoms of Heaven as did my ancestors granting their descendants automatic entry to their Principalities in Heaven.
When you get to Heaven CA be careful if you play Diplomacy with the Holy Ghost & several of the ArchAngels can be a bit stabby imho.

[Crazy Anglican]

Hello again MajorMitchell,

There is no need for Gods or Religions in the processes by which we decide what are Lawful &/or good behaviours and what behaviours are Not Lawful and/or Bad in order to have Civil Societies in which people behave ethically with compassion.
Your use of "Guilty for Raping & Pillaging" & "Evil" suggests we can only judge acts in a religious context to determine if they are good or bad, that's very limited thinking imho.

I think you may have misunderstood me, I was countering your assertion (or at least what I believed your assertion to be) that religions label things as sinful simply to generate guilt so that their faithful will have to buy forgiveness from them (it’s a paraphrase at beast, but it’s what I got from your statement).
I agree that there are other sources for law, but one might just as easily say that traffic laws are a scam to fill the public coffers with the fines paid by leadfooted citizens. Are they simply that, or do they serve some role in public safety? Likewise, simply saying “Thou shalt not commit adultery” might have a useful role in helping out our Civil society where people behave ethically and compassionately.
Actually, it seems that secular society (and I am glad for this fact by the way) operates much more clearly on the reward / punishment system to which you refer since if I were to get a speeding ticket the amount I’d pay is determined by the judge based (presumably) on the severity of my behavior, and I’d have little choice but to pay it. Not so in the Anglican Church to which I am a part, but I’ll get to that in a moment.

You misunderstand, or misrepresent my comments with your "..i'm having to.pay the bill (for redemption) now After redemption..." discordant jazz
I clearly described the forgiveness process in simple terms, so i reiterate with a touch of elaboration..
Confession, acts of penance & repentance., donations to the Church, Obeisance to.the God etc etc as proscribed by respective priest, iman, representative of the particular chosen God.. THEN Forgiveness

I don’t think I misrepresented or misunderstood you, I just disagree with you. To be clear I am not talking about Islam or Catholicism since I am not too familiar with the daily practices of either faith. Still though, in the Anglican Church there is general confession and general absolution. In simple terms the flock all together says, “We screwed up last week” and the priest says “you’re forgiven”. Nobody is excluded for nonpayment or for any reason. That’s why I said your transactional model doesn’t hold much water.

I did not suggest Forgiveness is free, i clearly suggested the antithesis, that there is a COST for Forgiveness extracted by the particular church/religion on it's sinful adherents.
Your imaginitive rabbithole of American Health systems & forgiveness is a non sequitur of irrelevance imho.

Again, general confession and general absolution defeats that notion. Perhaps you’re misunderstanding me? The health care remark was flippant, agreed.

If a chap signs up for this religious belief caper with the need to gain forgiveness for sins for an Eternal reward then it is obvipus that chap needs to commit sins in order to go through the confession, penance, repentance, forgiveness process to gain the Eternal reward.
Tis all hypothetical if a chap is fortunate enough to be a descendant of Savvy Medieval Religious Investors who donated lands & wealth, schlepped off on Crusades to slaughter Infidels to aquire Principalities in the Christian Kingdoms of Heaven as did my ancestors granting their descendants automatic entry to their Principalities in Heaven.

You thought the health care remark was a non sequitur?

When you get to Heaven CA be careful if you play Diplomacy with the Holy Ghost & several of the ArchAngels can be a bit stabby imho.

I do poorly enough without playing omniscient opponents. As to Archangels, yes of course they’re scary, the first thing they ever say is “Fear Not”.


Speaking of confession though, I totally plagiarized Dusty Balzac in a D&D campaign. The other gnome named himself Gnome Chomsky and I was happy to have a ready made rejoinder.

[Crazy Anglican]

I would like to point out though, that the OP was talking about the need for us to forgive others.

[MajorMitchell]

You are correct CA, the original post was about forgiving others if we expect God to forgive us.
I like that player name Gnome Chomsky.
For using my performing name "Dusty Balzac" in a D&D game i would suggest as penance you do a Youtube search for the 24 minute film titled:
Formosus, the Mystic and the Witch
& give it a like & a share.
It's based on a glorious piece of Vatican history, the Cadaver Synod (qv), the trial of the dead Pope Formosus for heresy & other crimes.

[Crazy Anglican]

You are correct CA, the original post was about forgiving others if we expect God to forgive us.

Yep.

I like that player name Gnome Chomsky.

I did too. If I had it to do over again, I'd probably have gone with Lily Putin.

For using my performing name "Dusty Balzac" in a D&D game i would suggest as penance you do ...

Again. I believe penance to be a Catholic thing, but I'll probably look up the video anyway.

[DougJoe]

For an interesting take on forgiveness, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-gxpTOTozE&t=5007s

It's a relatively well-known voice actor (at least here in the States - Maurice Lamarche) talking about a chance encounter he had with the Dalai Lama.

[Crazy Anglican]

HI DougJoe,

I liked that story quite a bit. I liked how the focus was on forgiveness being a healthy thing that allowed him to avoid the resentment that might make him relapse. It is a healthy habit.