why dont we get to post images yet

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dargorygel
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Re: why dont we get to post images yet

#21 Post by dargorygel » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:36 am

I always get those old Greek Guys mixed up.

Here it is from Plato's Phaedrus:
"And so it is that you by reason of your tender regard for the writing that is your offspring have declared the very opposite of its true effect. If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls. They will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks."

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Re: why dont we get to post images yet

#22 Post by MajorMitchell » Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:11 pm

I dislike derisory appraisals of JMO's responses and agree with much of what he and BoSox have posted. As much as I like Dipbro Brainbomb, this proposition is definitely not a simple matter imho. it's a proverbial Pandora's Sack/Box and I like the effective.mandatory use of written text to communicate.

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Re: why dont we get to post images yet

#23 Post by MajorMitchell » Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:13 pm

Some young excitable whippersnappers will.want to communicate with just emojos & zero written text

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Re: why dont we get to post images yet

#24 Post by teacon7 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:01 pm

Is this what you meant?
In the Phaedrus, Plato wrote: Socrates (469-399 BCE) was a Greek Philosopher who thought and taught through argumentative dialogue, or dialectic. Socrates did not write down any of his thoughts, however his dialogues were recorded by his student and protégé, the philosopher Plato (428 – 347 BCE). Here Socrates discusses the deficiencies of writing.

SOCRATES: … Among the ancient gods of Naucratis in Egypt there was one to whom the bird called the ibis is sacred. The name of that divinity was Theuth, and it was he who first discovered number and calculation, geometry and astronomy, as well as the games of checkers and dice, and, above all else, writing.

Now the king of all Egypt at that time was Thamus, who lived in the great city in the upper region that the Greeks call Egyptian Thebes … . Theuth came to exhibit his arts to him and urged him to disseminate them to all the Egyptians. Thamus asked him about the usefulness of each art, and while Theuth was explaining it, Thamus praised him for whatever he thought was right in his explanations and criticized him for whatever he thought was wrong.

The story goes that Thamus said much to Theuth, both for and against each art, which it would take too long to repeat. But when they came to writing, Theuth said: “O King, here is something that, once learned, will make the Egyptians wiser and will improve their memory; I have discovered a potion for memory and for wisdom.” Thamus, however, replied: “O most expert Theuth, one man can give birth to the elements of an art, but only another can judge how they can benefit or harm those who will use them. And now, since you are the father of writing, your affection for it has made you describe its effects as the opposite of what they really are. In fact, it will introduce forgetfulness into the soul of those who learn it: they will not practice using their memory because they will put their trust in writing, which is external and depends on signs that belong to others, instead of trying to remember from the inside, completely on their own. You have not discovered a potion for remembering, but for reminding; you provide your students with the appearance of wisdom, not with its reality. Your invention will enable them to hear many things without being properly taught, and they will imagine that they have come to know much while for the most part they will know nothing. And they will be difficult to get along with, since they will merely appear to be wise instead of really being so.”
Note-
It looks like it's not just "writing will be the death of memory" but also "writing will tempt us to be lazy when it comes to logic."

This seems really relevant in our age of retweets and mimetic repetition of ideas, whether or not we understand the consequences. But yeah, the idea of unintended consequences was unpopular back then too.
PHAEDRUS: Socrates, you’re very good at making up stories from Egypt or wherever else you want!

SOCRATES: But, my friend, the priests of the temple of Zeus at Dodona say that the first prophecies were the words of an oak. Everyone who lived at that time, not being as wise as you young ones are today, found it rewarding enough in their simplicity to listen to an oak or even a stone, so long as it was telling the truth, while it seems to make a difference to you, Phaedrus, who is speaking and where he comes from. Why, though, don’t you just consider whether what he says is right or wrong?
Note: Things don't change much. Here he calls Phaedrus out on a genetic fallacy / bad appeal to authority happening back then too. Today we get things like : "my heavily-controlled social media feed algorithm said it, I believe it, that settles it"
PHAEDRUS: I deserved that, Socrates. And I agree that the Theban king was correct about writing.

SOCRATES: Well, then, those who think they can leave written instructions for an art, as well as those who accept them, thinking that writing can yield results that are clear or certain, must be quite naive and truly ignorant of [Thamos’] prophetic judgment: otherwise, how could they possibly think that words that have been written down can do more than remind those who already know what the writing is about?

PHAEDRUS: Quite right.

SOCRATES: You know, Phaedrus, writing shares a strange feature with painting. The offsprings of painting stand there as if they are alive, but if anyone asks them anything, they remain most solemnly silent. The same is true of written words. You’d think they were speaking as if they had some understanding, but if you question anything that has been said because you want to learn more, it continues to signify just that very same thing forever. When it has once been written down, every discourse roams about everywhere, reaching indiscriminately those with understanding no less than those who have no business with it, and it doesn’t know to whom it should speak and to whom it should not. And when it is faulted and attacked unfairly, it always needs its father’s support; alone, it can neither defend itself nor come to its own support.

PHAEDRUS: You are absolutely right about that, too.

SOCRATES: Now tell me, can we discern another kind of discourse, a legitimate brother of this one? Can we say how it comes about, and how it is by nature better and more capable?

PHAEDRUS: Which one is that? How do you think it comes about?

SOCRATES: It is a discourse that is written down, with knowledge, in the soul of the listener; it can defend itself, and it knows for whom it should speak and for whom it should remain silent.

(Plato. c.399-347 BCE. “Phaedrus.” Pp. 551-552 in Compete Works, edited by J. M. Cooper. Indianapolis IN: Hackett. Taken from https://newlearningonline.com/literacie ... th-writing )
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Re: why dont we get to post images yet

#25 Post by MajorMitchell » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:59 pm

@Gimix ~you may have inferred that I describe this as our Forum with More Decorum albeit sarcastically and I do assure everyone in our Webdiplomacy Community that I had not intended to imply any sarcastism in using the description Forum with More Decorum because I do like the reforms to the Forum. If I'm going to be sarcastic I point to the "generosity in plus ones" given to me by excitable young whippersnapper Millennials who with over 6,000 views of my fictional Flyblown Farm thread are reading content without paying for the Intellectual Property rights of the Author.. Touche & Au Revoir

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Re: why dont we get to post images yet

#26 Post by gimix » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:15 pm

You're not including me among the whippersnapper millennials ... i'm afraid you're the youngster between you and me :shock:

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Re: why dont we get to post images yet

#27 Post by MajorMitchell » Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:31 pm

Of course I am not including you in the excitable young whippersnappers DipComrade Gimix, getting past the Grand High Inquisitor and Examination Committee, getting approval from Omnipotent Zultar and Nearly Omniscient Kestas to be a Site Administrator is a feat capable of few, if any excitable young whippersnappers...so really you should know better than to make hasty inferences regarding Daffy Old MM's appreciation of our Bwave New Forum with More Decorum. Your subtle deflection to your status is noted and the suggestion is offered that you respond to the central issue raised, a possibly unhelpful inference of yours.
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Re: why dont we get to post images yet

#28 Post by MajorMitchell » Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:39 pm

This is an excellent opportunity for excitable young whippersnappers & fledglings at Webdiplomacy to learn the Art of how to delicately inform a highly Powerful Site Administrator that they have perhaps made a rash and Innacurate interpretation of Public comments from a mere Scallywag Daffy Old Fool. Note the skillful diplomatic way both parties have initiated engagement & the early manouvres.. watch and learn young Nippers and Fledglings..
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Re: why dont we get to post images yet

#29 Post by brainbomb » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:23 am

major, considering diplomacy is a game played on a map, which is a large image, surely the ability to share images from dip maps, moves, and games would be useful?

This isnt even just me pandering for the ability to spam nonsense. Which is definetely what Id do. But surely theres a great practical argument for the educational utility here.

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Re: why dont we get to post images yet

#30 Post by gimix » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:51 pm

Major, i really enjoy your humour, but your English is too much for me to compete... remember, i'm just a poor Outlander from a remote province of the Empire - Piedmont, not even a supply centre on the map ;)
And although being old in real life, i'm only 2-years old in webDip so i never saw the Old Forum with Less (or No?) Decorum: i only know the present one.

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Re: why dont we get to post images yet

#31 Post by Nog » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:08 am

Will we ever be able to post Emojis?😒

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Re: why dont we get to post images yet

#32 Post by brainbomb » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:56 pm

no. theyll ban that too.

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Re: why dont we get to post images yet

#33 Post by MajorMitchell » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:27 am

Well the emojos of those whose names we cannot mention would be have to be banned of course and until Science can produce an emojo that accurately depicts the truly Beautiful Grim Visage of my Adorable Fire Breathing MemSahib or the Dapper Gentle nature of Daffy Old Fool MajorMitchell then I'd ask that restraint be shown until Science can produce the adequate emojos.

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Re: why dont we get to post images yet

#34 Post by MajorMitchell » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:40 am

See young excitable whippersnappers how one protagonist sticks with deflection, yet it is well known that it has long fallen on the civilised tribes of Gaul to disseminate enlightened thought and culture to the crude Barbarians of the northern provinces & associated Island dwelling natives of the Roman Empire, so this Malarkey imho about pleading ignorance from both a citizen of Piedmont and Canny member of Omnipotent Zultar's Magic Cave Cadre is, young whippersnappers & Dipfledglings is a useful defense yet unsustainable against the determined other protagonist who has an undeniable & incontrovertible truth on which to prosecute his cause, in essence, he has ensnared opposing protagonist with that protagonist's rash words in print.
Note how I cleverly use my advice to young excitable whippersnappers & Dipfledglings to also make my counter move. Isn't it fun, like watching David & Goliath in microcosm.

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