Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

Find the tournament calendar, sign up for tournaments, track tournament results, and fill out the tournament director questionnaire here.
Message
Author
TemplarsBane
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:49 pm
Karma: 7

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#201 Post by TemplarsBane » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:54 pm

So I was thinking about my own play in this tournament and brainstorming about ways to improve it.

Asking people to play consistently at a high level for a literal year is a HUGE ask. Add onto that the massive turn length and you have games stretching out for ages, people not even remembering who their allies were, hardly any communication aside from your one ally and maybe one enemy, and there start to be some patterns.

Could we shorten each game somehow? Like make each game a 10 min phase game and have it be live tournaments? Maybe play 1 game a week. Giving a few hours each Saturday or something seems like a MUCH easier ask than to be consistently at a high level for a year.

Obviously some players (maybe even myself) wouldn't be able to commit to such a schedule, but I think it would produce a higher quality tournament. Thoughts?
2

New England Fire Squad
Gold Donator
Gold Donator
Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:54 am
Location: Connecticut
Karma: 185

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#202 Post by New England Fire Squad » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:12 pm

TemplarsBane wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:54 pm
So I was thinking about my own play in this tournament and brainstorming about ways to improve it.

Asking people to play consistently at a high level for a literal year is a HUGE ask. Add onto that the massive turn length and you have games stretching out for ages, people not even remembering who their allies were, hardly any communication aside from your one ally and maybe one enemy, and there start to be some patterns.

Could we shorten each game somehow? Like make each game a 10 min phase game and have it be live tournaments? Maybe play 1 game a week. Giving a few hours each Saturday or something seems like a MUCH easier ask than to be consistently at a high level for a year.

Obviously some players (maybe even myself) wouldn't be able to commit to such a schedule, but I think it would produce a higher quality tournament. Thoughts?
A live tournament would be amazing.
1

Octavious
Posts: 1720
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
Karma: 1512
Contact:

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#203 Post by Octavious » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:21 pm

In the good old days, when webDip had a highly active live game scene with several full press live games each day, the ten minute games were always a disaster. Ten minutes a phase is a painfully long time when you've entered your orders and said everything you want to say, and have nothing to do but watch the clock tick down... Followed by watching ten minutes of retreat phase and a further ten minutes of waiting for someone to build an army. It gets mind numbingly dull and people would quit in their droves. I suspect that quite a few people deliberately created 10 minute games purely to take advantage of CDs to increase their win rate, much like they did with 12 hour phase games.

You could be forgiven for thinking that, if you found a group of like minded players who'd agree to ready up as soon as practicable, then the game could be sped along most of the time with ten minutes only taken when absolutely necessary... and yet someone it never actually worked out that way.

Live game tournaments have been attempted in the past. I think bo was the last person to give it a serious go. But despite some hurculean efforts by organisers they never go particularly smoothly. Considerably less smoothly than this tournament has, at least.

Ultimately the problem we have is that the calibre of people who play diplomacy tends to be far inferior to what we like to believe it is.
1

Jamiet99uk
Posts: 10723
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 pm
Location: Durham, UK
Karma: 3691
Contact:

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#204 Post by Jamiet99uk » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:53 pm

Octavious is right about ten-minute-phase games. It turns out to be pretty much the worst possible phase length, because you have to be prepared for each year of play to take up to 50 minutes (Spring Moves, Spring Retreats, Fall Moves, Fall Retreats, Fall Builds). You play for two hours and you're just into 1903.

A 10-minute-phase game, in practice, requires players to be willing to sit attentively at their computer, hitting "refresh" every 15 seconds, for anywhere between 6 and 12 straight hours.

You might have 6 to 12 hours free every Saturday to stare at webDip, but I don't.

If it were possible to create / program a game mode which featured 10 minute Spring and Fall move phases but, say, no-press retreat and build phases of 2.5 minutes each, then that might just about be feasible.
1

New England Fire Squad
Gold Donator
Gold Donator
Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:54 am
Location: Connecticut
Karma: 185

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#205 Post by New England Fire Squad » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:03 pm

A 5-7 minute phase tournament could work. Maybe not on a massive scale, but I'd personally love it.

TemplarsBane
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:49 pm
Karma: 7

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#206 Post by TemplarsBane » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:50 pm

I wasn't committed to 10 minutes specifically, but 5 minutes usually isn't long enough for long conversations. So maybe 7 minutes? And I think there is some kind of setting I've seen in like Rulebook Press where there's no press in retreats or builds and also there's no option to "Save" moves. You have to hit ready in those phases which would save a LOT of time.

Claesar
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 1731
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:34 am
Karma: 1230

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#207 Post by Claesar » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:54 pm

You should join the live FTF tournaments that are being hosted every month. Next up is the Liberty Cup: https://liberty-cup.com/2020-liberty-cup/
2

Octavious
Posts: 1720
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
Karma: 1512
Contact:

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#208 Post by Octavious » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:08 pm

It's a different skill, certainly. You need to get your point across concisely without sounding domineering, which can be a challenge. You do have a lot more time than you think, though. Knowing that the person you're talking to can reply instantly can lead to more back and forth in five minutes than you get in an entire 24 hr phase.

What there was talk about years ago was the possibility of having longer press phases and short retreat phases, but that died along with live game popularity. Playdip manage to have a double length initial phase, so you'd imagine it was doable here. Perhaps not.

The other problem with live tournaments is time zones. Europe likes to play several hours earlier than America, and Australia and Asia tend to be excluded completely. Still, where there's a will there's a way. Just be aware that it's possibly the hardest type of tournament to run, and although it is very different in atmosphere to something like the Masters you'll still get loads of dropouts.

Octavious
Posts: 1720
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:16 pm
Location: The Five Valleys, Gloucestershire
Karma: 1512
Contact:

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#209 Post by Octavious » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:11 pm

Claesar wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:54 pm
You should join the live FTF tournaments that are being hosted every month. Next up is the Liberty Cup: https://liberty-cup.com/2020-liberty-cup/
Why is the fashion for ftf tournaments on backstabbr of all places? Their map is hideous :sick:
1

New England Fire Squad
Gold Donator
Gold Donator
Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:54 am
Location: Connecticut
Karma: 185

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#210 Post by New England Fire Squad » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:49 pm

Claesar wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:54 pm
You should join the live FTF tournaments that are being hosted every month. Next up is the Liberty Cup: https://liberty-cup.com/2020-liberty-cup/
I might actually do that. Do I need a camera?
1

New England Fire Squad
Gold Donator
Gold Donator
Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:54 am
Location: Connecticut
Karma: 185

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#211 Post by New England Fire Squad » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:08 pm

Octavious wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:11 pm
Claesar wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:54 pm
You should join the live FTF tournaments that are being hosted every month. Next up is the Liberty Cup: https://liberty-cup.com/2020-liberty-cup/
Why is the fashion for ftf tournaments on backstabbr of all places? Their map is hideous :sick:
You are right. Just made an account, and it's ugly as hell. No idea why they wouldn't just use this site.
1

captainmeme
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Karma: 350

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#212 Post by captainmeme » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:29 pm

New England Fire Squad wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:08 pm
Octavious wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:11 pm
Claesar wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:54 pm
You should join the live FTF tournaments that are being hosted every month. Next up is the Liberty Cup: https://liberty-cup.com/2020-liberty-cup/
Why is the fashion for ftf tournaments on backstabbr of all places? Their map is hideous :sick:
You are right. Just made an account, and it's ugly as hell. No idea why they wouldn't just use this site.
GM functionality, Sandbox mode, and the support arrows make a bit more intuitive sense than the ones here do :D

Durga
Posts: 4718
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:01 pm
Location: Canada
Karma: 1175

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#213 Post by Durga » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:39 am

Backstabbr map is waaay nicer than webdip guys

Squigs44
Developer
Developer
Posts: 3374
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:50 pm
Location: In your head
Karma: 1467

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#214 Post by Squigs44 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:58 am

People have different tastes, and when you get used to one map, another map might seem weird. I personally like the clean look of backstabbr, but I still can't wrap my head around their support arrows, being used to webdips. The sandbox mode is really what makes sense for the f2f scene. Easy to mirror a physical board using sandbox mode.

New England Fire Squad
Gold Donator
Gold Donator
Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:54 am
Location: Connecticut
Karma: 185

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#215 Post by New England Fire Squad » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:08 am

Durga wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:39 am
Backstabbr map is waaay nicer than webdip guys
BOOO I practiced on sandbox mode and it took me 10 minutes to figure out how to support hold
1

Durga
Posts: 4718
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:01 pm
Location: Canada
Karma: 1175

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#216 Post by Durga » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:51 am

New England Fire Squad wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:08 am
Durga wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:39 am
Backstabbr map is waaay nicer than webdip guys
BOOO I practiced on sandbox mode and it took me 10 minutes to figure out how to support hold
Maybe it's less intuitive but once you get it it's great!
1

goldfinger0303
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 972
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:17 pm
Karma: 440

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#217 Post by goldfinger0303 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:45 am

TemplarsBane wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:54 pm
So I was thinking about my own play in this tournament and brainstorming about ways to improve it.

Asking people to play consistently at a high level for a literal year is a HUGE ask. Add onto that the massive turn length and you have games stretching out for ages, people not even remembering who their allies were, hardly any communication aside from your one ally and maybe one enemy, and there start to be some patterns.

Could we shorten each game somehow? Like make each game a 10 min phase game and have it be live tournaments? Maybe play 1 game a week. Giving a few hours each Saturday or something seems like a MUCH easier ask than to be consistently at a high level for a year.

Obviously some players (maybe even myself) wouldn't be able to commit to such a schedule, but I think it would produce a higher quality tournament. Thoughts?
Our players in this tournament are scattered all across the world. I think that reliably setting aside a time where 49 people could play a live game simultaneously across timezones would be near impossible.

I'll also add that 36 hr phases are about as short as turn lengths go. Some tournaments in the past did 24 hr phases, but those tended to have even worse NMR and dropout rates than this one. Length of the tournament has always been the Masters' biggest handicap, which I tried to remedy by having several rounds concurrently, but even then I know of some players who have told me they're burned out by too many games.

Something I've thought of is to go rulebook press to encourage people to ready more often, but I feel that is quite a major change and am leaning against it. Another change I've thought of doing next time (but haven't adopted now for consistency's sake) is after a player NMRs, if I see they've entered orders to push through the phase immediately. I could also make tweaks to pause policies to try and keep games going smoother. Shaving off a day here and there with small tweaks in each game will quickly add up to a lot shorter matches, I feel.

Claesar
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 1731
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:34 am
Karma: 1230

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#218 Post by Claesar » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:52 am

TemplarsBane wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:50 pm
I wasn't committed to 10 minutes specifically, but 5 minutes usually isn't long enough for long conversations. So maybe 7 minutes? And I think there is some kind of setting I've seen in like Rulebook Press where there's no press in retreats or builds and also there's no option to "Save" moves. You have to hit ready in those phases which would save a LOT of time.
I would strongly recommend against Rulebook Press for live games on webDip. In fact, I hope we've disabled that. The problem here is that if you press 'send' seconds after the deadline, your entire message is lost. Unless you're a mod, then it sends that last message to Global and outs you..


We frequently receive bug reports from people who suddenly can't send press anymore in one of their games. It's always Rulebook Press..

Claesar
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 1731
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:34 am
Karma: 1230

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#219 Post by Claesar » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:56 am

New England Fire Squad wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:49 pm
Claesar wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:54 pm
You should join the live FTF tournaments that are being hosted every month. Next up is the Liberty Cup: https://liberty-cup.com/2020-liberty-cup/
I might actually do that. Do I need a camera?
You do not. Virtual Massacre (the last tournament) was played with voice chat only, via Discord. Liberty Cup should be the same.

I would recommend joining one of the many practice games being organised. I played one last Saturday. It's good to have a feel of how long 15min/phase is when you can only talk to one person at a time. For me it's similar to 7min/phase FP live on webDip.

goldfinger0303
Site Moderator
Site Moderator
Posts: 972
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:17 pm
Karma: 440

Re: Announcing the 2020 Masters Tournament

#220 Post by goldfinger0303 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:49 am

Hi all,

I realize all games have been paused due to the site updates. I will unpause them all in ~8 hours.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest