Election UK - Those results in full!

by **Incrementalist** » Wed May 16, 2018 2:53 am

Telamor wrote: ↑
Mon May 14, 2018 2:54 pm
If you cancel your subscription to a magazine would you regard no longer receiving the magazine as a form of punishment?

That analogy makes no sense, because a magazine is something that is the publisher needs to recover their expenses on, hence the need for payment in return for the magazine.

A trade agreement isn't a transaction that one side or the other needs to recover their expenses on; the prevailing theory is that it's supposed to be a benefit to all parties.

by **Telamor** » Mon May 14, 2018 2:54 pm

Incrementalist wrote: ↑
Sun May 13, 2018 5:12 am
Do you expect that the new terms will be less favorable to the UK? If the agreement isn't roughly as favorable as EU membership, that would amount to a form of punishment for leaving.

If you cancel your subscription to a magazine would you regard no longer receiving the magazine as a form of punishment?

by **peterlund** » Sun May 13, 2018 9:07 am

Incrementalist wrote: ↑
Sun May 13, 2018 5:12 am
If the agreement isn't roughly as favorable as EU membership, that would amount to a form of punishment for leaving.

Obviously, I do not agree with this description. They chose to leave to what defaults to no free-trade agreement at all. They decided themselves to punish themselves. This "punishment" was not initiated by anyone else.

They should be pleased if they after leaving still can get some kind of free-trade at all with EU.

by **peterlund** » Sun May 13, 2018 8:59 am

I expect that the term they get, is less favorable than remaining a member of the EU. It will be a cost attached to leaving, but it will be better than not having any free-trade agreement at all.

It will not be possible to leave the EU and then cherry-pick all the goodies out of the cake.

From a political point, UK will loose all influence over the internal market. So when we change something that affects any free trade agreement we have with them, EU will amend the free-trade deal again accordingly, and UK need to accept. No negotiations.

by **Incrementalist** » Sun May 13, 2018 5:12 am

peterlund wrote: ↑
Sun May 13, 2018 12:00 am
EU will tell them what benefits they can get in form of free-trade with EU. And they will need to accept what they are told, because it will be hugely important for them to get an agreement, but just some minor side notes for EU.

Do you expect that the new terms will be less favorable to the UK? If the agreement isn't roughly as favorable as EU membership, that would amount to a form of punishment for leaving.

by **Telamor** » Sun May 13, 2018 12:48 am

Octavious wrote: ↑
Fri May 11, 2018 8:41 pm

Telamor wrote: ↑
Fri May 11, 2018 7:21 pm
Yeah I imagine Farage will be thrilled when we chuck out our labour regulations, cut corporation tax, and scrap the welfare state and turn Britain into a low reg. Haven for the super rich.
You have a low opinion of the British people, Telamor. Not only is there no desire to do that in the Conservative Party, but even if there was and they achieved it the public would quickly vote them out and Labour would reverse the policies. There is literally no danger whatsoever of what you've suggested happening.

Most of the Neo-cons in the Tory party already want that. Labour regulations distort the market preventing the invisible hand distributing all things justly. The sad thing is that a large chunk of Britain will support the changes, the Tories will blame it on EU, claim they're out to stop the UK succeeding and that these cuts to regulations are the EU's fault and people will believe them. The rhetoric is already in place 'project fear', 'liberal elite', 'traitor' all these delightful terms that have been rolled out over the past few years are ideal for scapegoating the economic failings of Brexit.

That's without even mentioning the drubbing we're going to get in any free trade negotiations with nations like China or India. I don't want to think about the sort of deregulation the US might force on us in exchange for a deal.

by **peterlund** » Sun May 13, 2018 12:00 am

Incrementalist wrote: ↑
Sat May 12, 2018 1:32 am
Maximizing economic efficiency isn't the highest priority of liberal democracy.

You are right. It is not highest priority but it is a certain positive side-effect of Liberal Democracy.

Incrementalist wrote: ↑
Sat May 12, 2018 1:32 am
It isn't even the highest priority of the EU vis-à-vis the UK. The remaining members of the EU are likely to craft policies to punish the UK for leaving, even if it comes at a net economic cost to everyone. Free trade takes a backseat to politics all around.

I think you are wrong. People in the UK, overestimates their own importance heavily all the time. We basically don't give a shit from an economic point of view of their dumb-dumber-dumbest-nationalistic points of view. I do not see any reason to punish them for being as stupid as they are. We can still trade with them, but they should not come to the "negotiation" table and expect to negotiate with us. EU will tell them what benefits they can get in form of free-trade with EU. And they will need to accept what they are told, because it will be hugely important for them to get an agreement, but just some minor side notes for EU.

by **Octavious** » Sat May 12, 2018 8:30 am

Incrementalist wrote: ↑
Sat May 12, 2018 1:32 am

peterlund wrote: ↑
Fri May 11, 2018 9:00 pm
...And this also Labour need to do in a fringe country on the outskirts of the Economic engine and free trade market in the EU.
Maximizing economic efficiency isn't the highest priority of liberal democracy.

It isn't even the highest priority of the EU vis-à-vis the UK. The remaining members of the EU are likely to craft policies to punish the UK for leaving, even if it comes at a net economic cost to everyone. Free trade takes a backseat to politics all around.

If the EU turns out to be so petty then that would confirm beyond doubt that the British public's decision to leave was correct, but I don't actually think we'll see much of that. Besides which the EU should be more focused on the civil war going on inside it's borders. It has never been so internally divided. Mattarella's call for irreversible unity was chilling.

by **Incrementalist** » Sat May 12, 2018 1:32 am

peterlund wrote: ↑
Fri May 11, 2018 9:00 pm
...And this also Labour need to do in a fringe country on the outskirts of the Economic engine and free trade market in the EU.

Maximizing economic efficiency isn't the highest priority of liberal democracy.

It isn't even the highest priority of the EU vis-à-vis the UK. The remaining members of the EU are likely to craft policies to punish the UK for leaving, even if it comes at a net economic cost to everyone. Free trade takes a backseat to politics all around.

by **peterlund** » Fri May 11, 2018 9:00 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Fri May 11, 2018 8:41 pm
Not only is there no desire to do that in the Conservative Party,

Desire or not. The conservative are so stupid so they do not realize the consequences of the shit they are doing. Vote LibDem! The LibDem have the few smart politicians in the UK. The rest is a joke!

Octavious wrote: ↑
Fri May 11, 2018 8:41 pm
but even if there was and they achieved it the public would quickly vote them out and Labour would reverse the policies. There is literally no danger whatsoever of what you've suggested happening.

Well it does not matter much if Labour replaces the Tories. You are OUT IN THE COLD and Telamor is completely right. For you to be attractive, you must indulge in social dumping and low taxes for the rich. And this also Labour need to do in a fringe country on the outskirts of the Economic engine and free trade market in the EU.

by **Octavious** » Fri May 11, 2018 8:41 pm

Telamor wrote: ↑
Fri May 11, 2018 7:21 pm
Yeah I imagine Farage will be thrilled when we chuck out our labour regulations, cut corporation tax, and scrap the welfare state and turn Britain into a low reg. Haven for the super rich.

You have a low opinion of the British people, Telamor. Not only is there no desire to do that in the Conservative Party, but even if there was and they achieved it the public would quickly vote them out and Labour would reverse the policies. There is literally no danger whatsoever of what you've suggested happening.

by **Telamor** » Fri May 11, 2018 7:21 pm

Yeah I imagine Farage will be thrilled when we chuck out our labour regulations, cut corporation tax, and scrap the welfare state and turn Britain into a low reg. Haven for the super rich.

by **StevenC.** » Fri May 11, 2018 6:50 pm

peterlund wrote: ↑
Fri May 11, 2018 6:38 pm
Yes maybe, but we are getting tired of you on the isles too, so I guess this divorce is good for both of us. Good luck and good bye! I think you will need it!

*Nigel Farage laughing heartily in the background intensifies*

by **peterlund** » Fri May 11, 2018 6:38 pm

Yes maybe, but we are getting tired of you on the isles too, so I guess this divorce is good for both of us. Good luck and good bye! I think you will need it!

by **Octavious** » Fri May 11, 2018 6:34 pm

Would that be the EU in which the old style far right are uniting with Trump style populists to rule Italy? Frankly the EU is rapidly losing its appeal.

by **peterlund** » Fri May 11, 2018 5:42 pm

Telamor wrote: ↑
Mon May 07, 2018 12:25 pm
There were a few interesting developments, UKIP collapsing, Labour failing to take London, and the Lib Dems picking up some new seats.

Well I do not give a shit about that. Tell me when you are rejoining the EU and the world community. Then I will start listening. Promise!

by **Octavious** » Tue May 08, 2018 7:50 pm

UKIP's collapse is old news, though. They did the exact same thing in the local elections in 2017, and nothing has changed since. It would be much more of a story if they'd somehow turned things around and only lost half their seats... or even only lost 3/4 of them.

Same with the Lib Dems, really. They're recovering slightly (and only slightly) in traditional Lib Dem strongholds. Considering how dismal Labour and the Tories have been lately they should be disappointed.

As for Labour, I think it was largely a case of an abysmal failure to manage expectations. They did well in London considering how keen they've been on alienating the Jewish vote. Not since Mosley left the Labour Party to form the British Union of Fascists have they looked as dodgy. Still, they've underperformed elsewhere. We all know how grim May looks when she thinks things have gone badly, and the grin on her face is a clear sign of how much better it went than she feared it might.

by **Telamor** » Mon May 07, 2018 12:25 pm

There were a few interesting developments, UKIP collapsing, Labour failing to take London, and the Lib Dems picking up some new seats.

by **Telamor** » Sun May 06, 2018 3:56 am

Thanks for your input Leon! I was actually sat here wondering exactly what your opinion on the UK was! Have you considered making a thread where you express your opinion on every nation on the planet for ease of access? Because I'm sure I can't have been the only one on the forum waiting desperately to hear what you think about their country.

by **Octavious** » Sat May 05, 2018 11:49 am

Better to live in a shithole country than to be a tit

Election UK - Those results in full!

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