Trump got off with he committed a crime, but the Republicans aren't going to punish him because:

1 - Trump learned his lesson. ROFL
2 - It wasn't that serious because only Ukrainians got killed because of it.
3 - Republicans are hypocrites who would have lynch a Democrat for less, because they tried with Clinton.
4 - He's their crook and they care more about keeping his supporters than justice.

Trump's started his victory marathon with Republican Senators expected to let him off the hook. Trump at his private Super Bowl party mocked our national anthem after years of condemning others for making political protests by kneeling or sitting. Next up is requesting his enemy list members be eliminated?

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article239913588.html

I'm not so sure that I agree with Octavious. This might turn out to be a short term political win for Trumptoad and the Republicans, but a long term win for the Democratic party, depending on how well the Democrats exploit it during the election campaign. The Democrats can now accuse the Republicans of involvement in the cover up with greater credibility and if there's a continuing flow of damaging (to Trumptoad​) information into the public arena. The Democrats can reasonably argue that they did their best to investigate the corruption and that responsibility for the failure of the investigation lies with the Republicans.
It's perhaps a feature of the divisiveness of American politics that many Republicans will continue to support Trump despite clearly knowing him to be dishonest and corrupt, which will only embolden Trumptoad. Like the aquiesence of the German people when the Nazis started killing the mentally & physically retarded in significant numbers emboldened the Nazis to engage in mass murder of Jews, gypsies etc etc on a far greater scale.

[quote=flash2015 post_id=128936 time=1580580596 user_id=80]
Given how much importance each side gives to appointing judges, it does suggest that there is an imbalance in power in the US (the legislative, executive and judicial) with the judicial having way, way too much power. IMHO, in a properly balanced system, court challenges to government legislation should be the exception rather than the rule but unfortunately it is the opposite in the US. <snip>
[/quote]
Can I just disagree a little bit. I think the power the courts have is fine, the problem is the lack of capacity between the other two branches to amend the constitution.

Take Roe vs Wade, it should be legislated for. A clear decision made democratically. Rather than the decision being made by unelected judges. Their job is to interpret what the law is. Not make it. I guess I mostly agree with you, but I don't think the flaw is with the Judicial system.

Apart from approving judges, the Senate has not been doing much recently anyway. There are hundreds of house bills which McConnell has just ignored, not willing to even bring them to the Senate floor for debate:

https://www.vox.com/2019/11/29/20977735/how-many-bills-passed-house-democrats-trump

Given how much importance each side gives to appointing judges, it does suggest that there is an imbalance in power in the US (the legislative, executive and judicial) with the judicial having way, way too much power. IMHO, in a properly balanced system, court challenges to government legislation should be the exception rather than the rule but unfortunately it is the opposite in the US.

Something had to be done about Trump's actions in Ukraine. It is blatantly clear that he did what was charged with doing, he held up military aid/stopped a meeting in exchange for Ukraine announcing an investigation of the Bidens. And he is smart to use executive privilege to stop anyone from his administration from testifying...as that was what finally sunk Nixon (Congress found out about the tapes through members of his administration testifying). Also lying to Congress is a BIG DEAL which can lead to jail time.

The question is - was moving so quickly for impeachment the right move? If they were going to do it, they had to do it straight away before they had the whole story because any later would make it fall into the election campaign (especially an issue so closely related to potentially influencing an election), but their time constraints also meant they couldn't wait for the courts to deal with the administration's witnesses which also hurt their case.

With all the distractions along the way though, unfortunately I don't think we have had a real debate on whether this is right or wrong, irrespective of whether we believe it is enough to remove a president from office. This is imprtant because the outcome here sets precedent for Trump for the rest of his presidency and for future presidents of either party. If you don't think precedent matters, note that many of the arguments in the impeachment trial were based on decisions made two centuries ago.

[quote=Octavious post_id=128929 time=1580561674 user_id=71]
What is it the Senate's actually meant to do again?
[/quote]
One Republican senator claimed he was being held hostage for having to show up at the high paying job he fought to be elected to doing. Something he swore two oaths to do. I guess it cut down on his recreational time since he wasn't Trump.

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2020/01/29/sen-rick-scott-held-hostage-by-trumps-impeachment-uses-it-to-build-his-own-national-profile

Well, it looks like that's that. What always looked like the most overwhelmingly likely outcome from the start is days away from actually happening. Trump clocks up another political victory at the start of an election year, the Democrats are held responsible for forcing the Senate to waste countless hours on a pointless exercise when they could have been... What is it the Senate's actually meant to do again?

Trump has the votes just because too many Republican senators fear his supporters. This may backfire at the election as more evidence comes out and if it doesn't appear during the hearing.

Trump is going with what worked for him in the past. Stonewall evidence and witnesses to prevent charges. Attack the prosecution and judges to get the case thrown out. Bribery with his attack on Iran's General Soleimani to get hard line Republican senators.

All that's left is the final stage where Trump plea bargains to avoid a conviction.

I don’t think there are enough people hitherto undecided on Senate candidates to the point this could change the outcome of the elections

Slim, but if they manage to get witnesses to come forward, it might start affecting the reflection chances of senators who are up for reelection this Nov.

I think getting a super majority is highly unlikely, but they could still put Trump under a lot of pressure. Which hurts his re-election chances...

Out of curiosity, Random, what do you think the chances are of this process working?

Trump is still in denial as his impeachment start in the senate on Tuesday. Still fighting to block evidence of his criminal activities with getting McConnell to block witnesses.

Trump is claiming that this is to over turn his election and he forgets that he fought to over turn two Obama elections with seven years of fake birther claims, tried to end McCain's Republican candidacy with a similar claim. Then there was all the years of the Whitewater investigation to remove Clinton.

I'm sure there'll be many copies of Trumptoad books in 2nd hand/Charity shops in a few short years, at a quarter of a dollar/pound/duetshmark/franc I've already passed the two I got given & have read to another reader to save him purchasing new copies.

[quote=MajorMitchell post_id=120428 time=1577666734 user_id=204]
Dear Dipbro Octavious, you are criticising a book based on my "crude summary" of one part of that book which I would diplomatically suggest is singularly unfair to it's author. Criticise me for my inability in a thread post to provide an accurate and complete representation of it's contents, or better yet, borrow a copy and read it yourself, then make your criticisms /assessment. I would recommend in particular, chapter 8- "We the Electorate".
[/quote]

Fair enough. Still, I fear this is unlikely to successfully compete for space on my bookshelf which is currently dominated by Pratchett, Wodehouse, Scifi, and the good lady manager, her indoors' fantasy collection. Life is too short to read about one chap's opinion on foreign politicians. If I was going to read one I'd probably start with a pro Trump book, as differing opinions to my own tend to be more interesting, but even so there are 1001 books above it on my reading list.

Far better to just wait and see what happens, and chuckle at the wildly incorrect predictions made by journalists and commentators along the way.

@MajorMitchell

Trump lies is default, but on very rare occasions he throws in a truth.

Three years after the election and Trump is still claiming winning the popular vote which he lost. Every documented case of election fraud has been by Republicans from absentee ballots in North Carolina to illegal alien voting in California. So his total is mostly likely even lower than reported.

The last thing Trump wants to do is leave office after stirring up so many criminal investigations. He and his family dodged criminal charges with his fake charity, but New York state is looking at tax evasion and bank fraud, Trump's blocking release of money laundering information, ICE isn't going after Trump companies for hiring illegal aliens, ….

At his age, any jail sentence would probably see him die there. It would take a presidential pardon to help him at this point and he's considered pardoning himself.

@Randomiser, I would suggest that the default position with regard to anything that Trumptoad states, tweets etc is that it is a falsehood, that he will flip-flop, fail to follow through effectively. That's his track record.
I suspect that Trumptoad would in many ways see an election defeat as an outcome not altogether undesirable, it would absolve him from actually having to deliver on his promises and give him scapegoats to take the blame for his failures. It would fit his narrative "I tried, but everyone except my supporters conspired against me"/ "I was the greatest POTUS ever, but was unfairly denied my opportunity to MAGA"
I think that there is a lot Trumptoad likes about being POTUS, but that there is a hell of a lot more that Trumptoad really dislikes about being POTUS... So an early exit after one term where he keeps his POTUS pension might have significant appeal to the lazy, ignorant, narcissistic, dishonest, delusional bully that many regard Trumptoad to be, and who are most probably correct.

Dear Dipbro Octavious, you are criticising a book based on my "crude summary" of one part of that book which I would diplomatically suggest is singularly unfair to it's author. Criticise me for my inability in a thread post to provide an accurate and complete representation of it's contents, or better yet, borrow a copy and read it yourself, then make your criticisms /assessment. I would recommend in particular, chapter 8- "We the Electorate".
I deliberately described my description of part of the book as a "crude summary" to make it obvious that I couldn't do justice to the author's propositions in my post.
It does discuss the potential pushback by Trumptoad​ and his hardcore supporters to an election defeat as well as an impeachment. Again this is a crude representation, part of the suggested reasons for an election defeat being a better outcome is about ownership.. an impeachment is a process of Washington, the political system, whereas an election defeat involves "the people" whom the founding fathers of the Constitution of the USA clearly saw as the ultimate authority (as I understand the history of the nation founded by those wascally webellious North American colonies).
I would recommend the book to anyone interested in this stuff, but I'd suggest borrowing it if possible to avoid the expense of purchasing it, although the author does give a commitment that profits from it's sales will not be used for the author's personal enrichment, they will be donated to what I will, again crudely describe as "good causes".

Trump has already stated and this may be one of the few true things he has said that he won't accept an election where he loses as legitimate. He would challenge the results as due to fake votes bussed in to the states where he loses. No evidence of voting irregularities are needed for his claims.

We would see the first time a president refusing to leave office. We would have two months where the current government would be defying the future government and debates of who is in charge and the legitimacy of government orders.

The best way to remove Trump may be in an election rather than an impeachment process that relies upon a score of Republican senators turning against their own party?

Gosh... with deep insights like that the book must be a best seller.

Trump is not a good president, but there's no terminal decline and no abyss. Just like there wasn't after he won the last election. Things will largely tick along much the same as before.

I've just read two books critical of Trumptoad, "Siege" by Michael Wolff & "A Warning" by Anonymous, A Senior Trump Administration Official. In the second book the author discusses the ways Trumptoad might be removed from Office, and makes a compelling argument that the "best" way for Trumptoad to be removed is not by impeachment but by electoral defeat in November 2020.
A crude summary of the argument is that only an election defeat will have genuine, or sufficient legitimacy. Impeachment would probably be bitterly disputed by Trumptoad and his hardcore (albeit minority) base.
An election defeat would be much harder to dispute, plus the author makes the point that the voters must take responsibility in setting the USA on a path to recovery.
As an aside, I have been a Trumptoad critic, but I hadn't realised just how bad a President Trumptoad actually is. On just one criteria, USA's Government debt, Trump is a total disaster. Trumptoad promised to eliminate Government debt in his election campaign, now most people probably realised that was an impossible to deliver promise, but his supporters probably expected some reduction, however the annual deficits have increased significantly under Trump.
Trumptoad is definitely not making the USA great again, he's setting the USA into terminal decline. A second term for Trumptoad might tip the USA into the abyss, the global consequences are rather shocking to contemplate.
Another point is that the Republicans need to realise just how much damage he is doing to their Party and it's future. Going along with Trump is a very dangerous path for the Republicans (as well as the rest of us)