Lilith for Sainthood

by **Fluminator** » Sun May 31, 2020 4:17 pm

orathaic wrote: ↑
Sun May 31, 2020 9:46 am

Fluminator wrote: ↑
Sat May 30, 2020 9:47 pm
Even if you believe the Bible is all a bunch of hogwash, you still have to appreciate how much of an effect it still has on modern culture. For such an ancient book, it's stood the test of time.
I mean I could say the same about Game of Thrones...

I think, for an ancient book, all the edits, retranslations, missing bits and added fanfic (like this lilith character) go to show how humans can create meaning from anything, and repeatedly change that meaning depending on their needs.

I haven't watched Game of Thrones yet. What effect has it had on culture that is similar to the Bible?

by **orathaic** » Sun May 31, 2020 9:49 am

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Sun May 31, 2020 2:43 am

I am not sure what I was "nitpicking" about. I am a former Catholic. I was making a point that at least currently new saints need to be real people...and there is a process that needs to happen for someone to become a saint. This would preclude a mythical character from the old testament from now becoming a saint.

Wait, one line in the old testament makes a character? (combined with myths about demons from other traditions perhaps, assuming the implied context of that one line)

by **orathaic** » Sun May 31, 2020 9:46 am

Fluminator wrote: ↑
Sat May 30, 2020 9:47 pm
Even if you believe the Bible is all a bunch of hogwash, you still have to appreciate how much of an effect it still has on modern culture. For such an ancient book, it's stood the test of time.

I mean I could say the same about Game of Thrones...

I think, for an ancient book, all the edits, retranslations, missing bits and added fanfic (like this lilith character) go to show how humans can create meaning from anything, and repeatedly change that meaning depending on their needs.

by **flash2015** » Sun May 31, 2020 2:43 am

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Sat May 30, 2020 11:37 pm

Fluminator wrote: ↑
Sat May 30, 2020 9:47 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Sat May 30, 2020 12:44 pm

Is there much point in a bunch of atheists and agnostics talking on a forum about which other Biblical characters should be saints?

We do know how to waste our time here, lol.
Even if you believe the Bible is all a bunch of hogwash, you still have to appreciate how much of an effect it still has on modern culture. For such an ancient book, it's stood the test of time.
Oh sure I just didn't really see the point of nit-picking about which parts of it were "true" as Flash was doing.

I am not sure what I was "nitpicking" about. I am a former Catholic. I was making a point that at least currently new saints need to be real people...and there is a process that needs to happen for someone to become a saint. This would preclude a mythical character from the old testament from now becoming a saint.

by **Jamiet99uk** » Sat May 30, 2020 11:37 pm

Fluminator wrote: ↑
Sat May 30, 2020 9:47 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Sat May 30, 2020 12:44 pm

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Fri May 29, 2020 9:36 pm

This is a puzzling comment. Hadn't I made this clear in a different thread about Roman records and Jesus existence? Very little of it. But of course there are characters mentioned in the Bible which likely did exist (like St. Paul and Pontius Pilate).
Is there much point in a bunch of atheists and agnostics talking on a forum about which other Biblical characters should be saints?

We do know how to waste our time here, lol.
Even if you believe the Bible is all a bunch of hogwash, you still have to appreciate how much of an effect it still has on modern culture. For such an ancient book, it's stood the test of time.

Oh sure I just didn't really see the point of nit-picking about which parts of it were "true" as Flash was doing.

by **Fluminator** » Sat May 30, 2020 9:58 pm

Randomizer wrote: ↑
Sat May 30, 2020 8:39 pm

MajorMitchell wrote: ↑
Sat May 30, 2020 3:03 pm
which Graves links through Babylonian civilisation (the Jews were slaves for long time to Babylonian masters before later becoming slaves to Egyptian masters and then Moses leading them to promised land)
Babylonia didn't exist at the time of the first Egyptian slavery of Jews that Moses led them out of in the Book of Exodus. The Babylonian conquest and exile wasn't until centuries later.

I suggest you read one of the Four Document discussions that believe the present Old Testament was a compilation of at least four different versions that used different names for God. There have been attempts to separate out the material based on style and language.

http://www.cs.umd.edu/~mvz/bible/doc-hyp.pdf

I'm fuzzy in some of the timelines, but I believe Babylon was around back then. There were two major waves of Babylonian dominance. Assyria conquered them, but Babylon made a comeback.
I'll have to read the book because I've never heard of the Jews being slaves to the Babylons before Egypt though. (I hear many times that the Jews being Egyptian slaves were myth and legend, and there's no records of a mass exodus out of Egypt.)

by **Fluminator** » Sat May 30, 2020 9:47 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Sat May 30, 2020 12:44 pm

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Fri May 29, 2020 9:36 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Fri May 29, 2020 9:17 pm

This is a puzzling comment.

Which parts of the Bible do you think are "real"?
This is a puzzling comment. Hadn't I made this clear in a different thread about Roman records and Jesus existence? Very little of it. But of course there are characters mentioned in the Bible which likely did exist (like St. Paul and Pontius Pilate).
Is there much point in a bunch of atheists and agnostics talking on a forum about which other Biblical characters should be saints?

We do know how to waste our time here, lol.

Even if you believe the Bible is all a bunch of hogwash, you still have to appreciate how much of an effect it still has on modern culture. For such an ancient book, it's stood the test of time.

by **Randomizer** » Sat May 30, 2020 8:39 pm

MajorMitchell wrote: ↑
Sat May 30, 2020 3:03 pm
which Graves links through Babylonian civilisation (the Jews were slaves for long time to Babylonian masters before later becoming slaves to Egyptian masters and then Moses leading them to promised land)

Babylonia didn't exist at the time of the first Egyptian slavery of Jews that Moses led them out of in the Book of Exodus. The Babylonian conquest and exile wasn't until centuries later.

I suggest you read one of the Four Document discussions that believe the present Old Testament was a compilation of at least four different versions that used different names for God. There have been attempts to separate out the material based on style and language.

http://www.cs.umd.edu/~mvz/bible/doc-hyp.pdf

by **orathaic** » Sat May 30, 2020 7:02 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Sat May 30, 2020 12:44 pm

Is there much point in a bunch of atheists and agnostics talking on a forum about which other Biblical characters should be saints?

We do know how to waste our time here, lol.

I guess I'm less interested in buying into the existence of a supernatural that iron age peasants believed in, than I am in the missing context of myths which I was raised with.

Like Lilith is a character in modern media (the mother of demons according to some), Brigid is an official Catholic Saint. The history of how ideas change and adapt is interesting.

That said I no longer identify as an atheist. And I don't think I've ever been agnostic. I recall very clearly making my confirmation aged 12 while 100% certain god didn't exist (and as such was doing it for purely mercanary reasons).

by **MajorMitchell** » Sat May 30, 2020 3:03 pm

To Dipcomrade Fluminator .. I would strongly recommend that you read the introduction in Robert Graves book "The Greek Myths" I don't want to spoil what you will read. But you will find an explanation of the roots of the initial Hebrew term Yahweh, which Graves links through Babylonian civilisation (the Jews were slaves for long time to Babylonian masters before later becoming slaves to Egyptian masters and then Moses leading them to promised land) to a more ancient mother Earth goddess that was a trinity.. virginal young maid/fertile woman~mother/old crone.
The Greek Myths are a most interesting read.
One deity I often offer up a little prayer to is Hymen, the patron deity of marriage and of course the Hindu Shiva, the Cosmic Dancer is imho a stunningly impressive God. When Shiva stops dancing and puts his foot down (Shiva statues always have one foot raised)..ALL TIME STOPS. Which terminates eternity.

by **MajorMitchell** » Sat May 30, 2020 2:48 pm

Greetings Dipcomrade Orathaic, there might be some essence of Lilith reincarnated in my Adorable Fire Breathing Mem Sahib Her Lovely Serene Imperiousness Indoors lounging on a sofa knitting her new Rainbow Gollywogs.
I'm certain I have mentioned Hypatia, a lady mathematician, astronomer.and intellectual of ancient Alexandria and her unfortunate death, murdered it is thought by religious zealots in the funding between traditional "pagans" (which in it's way is a denigrating term for worshippers of animal spirits etc including ancient deities) and the extremely aggressive Grecian Christians who also burnt Alexandria's famous library during this period of religious strife.

by **Jamiet99uk** » Sat May 30, 2020 12:44 pm

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Fri May 29, 2020 9:36 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Fri May 29, 2020 9:17 pm

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Fri May 29, 2020 3:54 pm

OK, you are right. I stand corrected. They are both mentioned in the new testament too though...but they are still not real.
This is a puzzling comment.

Which parts of the Bible do you think are "real"?
This is a puzzling comment. Hadn't I made this clear in a different thread about Roman records and Jesus existence? Very little of it. But of course there are characters mentioned in the Bible which likely did exist (like St. Paul and Pontius Pilate).

Is there much point in a bunch of atheists and agnostics talking on a forum about which other Biblical characters should be saints?

We do know how to waste our time here, lol.

by **flash2015** » Fri May 29, 2020 9:36 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Fri May 29, 2020 9:17 pm

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Fri May 29, 2020 3:54 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Fri May 29, 2020 3:39 pm

The Archangels Michael and Gabriel are figures from the Old Testament (both appear in the book of Daniel) so are clearly pre-Christ, and the Catholic Church venerates both of them as saints.
OK, you are right. I stand corrected. They are both mentioned in the new testament too though...but they are still not real.
This is a puzzling comment.

Which parts of the Bible do you think are "real"?

This is a puzzling comment. Hadn't I made this clear in a different thread about Roman records and Jesus existence? Very little of it. But of course there are characters mentioned in the Bible which likely did exist (like St. Paul and Pontius Pilate).

by **Jamiet99uk** » Fri May 29, 2020 9:17 pm

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Fri May 29, 2020 3:54 pm

Jamiet99uk wrote: ↑
Fri May 29, 2020 3:39 pm

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Fri May 29, 2020 3:12 pm
Are there any Saints defined pre-Christ though? Doesn't the person actually have to had existed to be a saint? The Catholic Church will quite openly say that most of the stuff in the old testament never happened.
The Archangels Michael and Gabriel are figures from the Old Testament (both appear in the book of Daniel) so are clearly pre-Christ, and the Catholic Church venerates both of them as saints.
OK, you are right. I stand corrected. They are both mentioned in the new testament too though...but they are still not real.

This is a puzzling comment.

Which parts of the Bible do you think are "real"?

by **Fluminator** » Fri May 29, 2020 9:07 pm

orathaic wrote: ↑
Fri May 29, 2020 7:24 pm

Fluminator wrote: ↑
Fri May 29, 2020 4:51 pm

I did hear a bit about the difference between Yaweh and Jehova? I think it was, suggesting a polytheistic root in Judaism's past. And how their god was only the local god of that area, and Zeus, Ra and various other gods were simalr 'rank' for want of a better term.

And separately how they imported monotheism from Zoroastrianism in the something something BCE...

See also:
https://youtu.be/4Kpkp2vxX3I
And
https://youtu.be/hl9QgeHdKYk

But I had assumed the cannon bible had removed most of these references.

I’m very much a nerd on this so I’m not sure you realized what you were getting into asking me that lol

The debate on if Yahweh and Jehova were the same God was pretty active in the early church and for a long time after. It sometimes still exists but it’s usually framed as “Is the Old Testament God the same as the New Testament God?” All mainstream Christians at this point are firmly on the side of yes though.

One of the apocryphal books featured a debate between Paul and Simon the Sorcerer on this matter, and I remember Simon made some good points in favour they were different lol. One example is Yahweh was apparently unable to take out iron chariots, which is strange for an omnipotent God:

Judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

I think a better term for the religious culture of Mesopotamia is henotheism, not polytheism. It's where you don’t deny other gods exist but you still only worship one. When one kingdom conquered another, it was usually seen as a victory of their god over the other god. (And indeed you see this in some Bible stories where the Philistines conquered Israel and put the arc in their god’s temple)

Not even the 10 commandments really contradict this. (“You shall not worship other gods”, is different from saying “I am the only God”) You also have the Old Testament constantly clarifying Yawheh is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (why only them?). There are many points in favour of the Jews at this point being henotheistic (sourced from the Bible no less).
It does seem compelling that Zoroastrianism would have been a main source of the shift later.

With regard to the Nephilum, the biggest source for that is the book of Enoch. It’s still in the Biblical canon in Ethiopia, but in the west it’s only referenced or quoted in it. But in Genesis there is still a clear mention that Angels breeded with Humans to create Nephilum who would be a source of the giants in the land. Genesis treats it like it’s common knowledge and doesn’t go too in depth though.

by **Octavious** » Fri May 29, 2020 8:35 pm

Was Lilith the one who invented the medicinal compound that proved most efficasious in every case?

by **orathaic** » Fri May 29, 2020 7:24 pm

Fluminator wrote: ↑
Fri May 29, 2020 4:51 pm
Dude, there is so much interesting stuff in Jewish/Christian text outside the modern western Bible. Lilith is just the tip of the iceberg.

You have pre-adamic civilization, angels, fallen angels, giants, nephilum, alien/human sex, disembodied spirits/demons, human/animal hybrid experiments, asteroid belt planet being destroyed, celestial wars, etc.

I did hear a bit about the difference between Yaweh and Jehova? I think it was, suggesting a polytheistic root in Judaism's past. And how their god was only the local god of that area, and Zeus, Ra and various other gods were simalr 'rank' for want of a better term.

And separately how they imported monotheism from Zoroastrianism in the something something BCE...

See also:
https://youtu.be/4Kpkp2vxX3I
And
https://youtu.be/hl9QgeHdKYk

But I had assumed the cannon bible had removed most of these references.

by **Fluminator** » Fri May 29, 2020 7:04 pm

Most Protestants are aware of it. It's probably the source of the biggest rift with Catholics, so it's not particularly controversial among Protestants.

(Although I do consider myself a realist, in the sense I don't believe the Bible is infallible, and think most of the religion/culture is man made. That part of me usually only comes out when I'm talking to fundamentalists though)

by **flash2015** » Fri May 29, 2020 6:23 pm

Fluminator wrote: ↑
Fri May 29, 2020 5:47 pm
The concept of sainthood itself, and praying to specific saints, was a way for the church to absorb polytheism

I didn't know that you were such a realist about Christianity.

by **Chaqa** » Fri May 29, 2020 6:20 pm

Just watch Supernatural to get your fill of apocrypha

Lilith for Sainthood

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