Political statement on homepage

by **taylor4** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:50 pm

Adding to the above: The amendment to the US Constitution which allowed Prohibition, the illegality of alcoholic beverages, the resultant crime waves, notoriously Al Capone and the rise of the American mafia, the disrespect for the law (e.g., speakeasies - even Franklin D. Roosevelt had a private stock of rum, whisky, etc. in his New York City townhouse), and the reversal, a constitutional amendment which usually requires supermajorities' approval by the houses of Congress and also of the severteral states.
The supermajorities in the US republic are rare, but do happen.
All chat of the remedy via a systemic, Constitutional change would ignore the fact that after the American civil war, Reconstruction Amendments, and during the 1960s further civil right constitutional Amendments GUARANTEED liberty, the right to vote, etc. to all races of people.
American representative government then proceeded to discriminate against Chinese, Eastern European and Muslim immigrants. US citizens followed their so-called Leaders and one prime example could be the fatal shooting of a Sikh gentleman. Uneducated citizens, they vote, no ?

by **taylor4** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:29 pm

Fabian Socialist "small" steps ? In no particular order, remedies and complex problems:
Legalization of marijuana, outlawed by federal legislation in the US, with the several states allowing medical/recreational use. (Historical footnote: One US state governor afflicted with cancer refused marijuana's pain-deadening affects.)
VAT and other sales taxes on "controlled" (hard and/or medical) drugs. The case of the opiod crisis in the US points to a judicial system wherein manufacturers (Big Pharma) can be fined some millions US$, which some of them consider a "Slap on the Wrist".
Morphine, in minute doses, is administered (not prescribed) by palliative care doctors of medicine. This I've noted occurred in cases of terminal stage of cancer or severe eye pain. In both of those instances the medicoes were not explicit as to the name, only the nature, of the "remedy" or painkiller.
-- Affirmative action as a remedy for four centuries of enslavement:
This is what may be for academics, reverse of PC - there was and maybe still is an admission policy of a "Jewish quota" at some Ivy League US universities. Of recent college admissions quotas, one thinks of Asians. Both are anachronistic stereotypes - there are multiple Asian nation-states, many shades of observant and non-observant Judaism - and, what about Islam, Roman Catholicism atheists, loony goat sacrificiers, C. of E. offshoots &c., &c., &c.
College admissions deans are adaptable and go with the flow: Recruit, in particular order: sports stars, Tex-Mex, Chicanos, women, the disabled, etc.
Social Promotion comes along in educational circles & students in high school in the US are near-illiterate and also require Remedial Math.
It's like Lord Redesdale, the Mitford sisters' pater, who only read Jack London's White Fang, nothing else; and unlike his ancestor who translated Japanese literature into English.
- Rights of freed prisoners, citizenship: Convicted felons (a sentence of at least one year plus a day) in many US states cannot legally vote (or cannot vote for some time period).

In the UK, Winchester students are chosen - how? Isn't it on their intellect?

by **orathaic** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:02 pm

Sorry, Flash, my quote was aimed at Octavious. You are of course right about other regimes. But it is only in the US that Capitalism have turned to prison for profit.

I'm not sure what your capitalist vs traditional Marxist axis looks like, because traditionally Marxism has been defined simple as those things that we (American Capitalists) don't like. But given the rest of what you've said, I presume you have read the political compass. And further, when I look at specific examples, like US gimp residential candidates, I find they often fall in fairly straight lines (between authoritarian right vs libertarian left) - which is not to deny that leftie authoritarian have existed, or that rightie libertarians do... Just that they aren't currently mainstream.

Regardless. I am not trying to tie them together. Octavious seems to be implying that supporting BLM is anti-capitalist. And that they are all tied together. I am in favour of small steps towards a better society to live in, rather than revolutionary changes which (historically at least) have come back around on themselves (Emperor Napoleon? Head of Revolutionary France?) and those can each be achieved independently.

by **flash2015** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:46 pm

orathaic wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:25 am

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:01 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:20 pm
Flash, what are you trying to argue? Are you trying to say that they don't want to to dismantle capitalism? Because they very much do. My suspicions in this area were first aroused by the statement on their fundraising page that says

https://uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

What more do you want?
I am asking for actual evidence that they are implementing this. What are they actually doing to destroy capitalism?
And what, precisely has prison abolition to do with dismantling capitalism?

I have a really clear answer. Exploitation of imprisoned PoC amounts to slavery and is thus a continuation of centuries of capitalist exploitation under a different name.

However you seem to reject this line of thinking, so please explain if you agree that we can dismantle the prison system without furthering this goals of dismantling capitalism.

Expoitation of prisoners has been done by governments of all persuasions. You think the Soviet Union, China, Vietnam or other communist country didn't have prisons or slave labour? Perhaps the only thing I can think of as exclusively capitalist is the idea of private prisons or "prisons for profit". I am not in favour of those because of the horrible incentives they provide (e.g. a judge in Pennsylvania a few years ago was found to be bribed by private prisons to send more children to jail/gaol).

I see ideas about policing/prisons/spying not on the traditional capitalist/marxist axis but instead on an authoritarian/libertarian ideology axis (I also see a third social conservative/liberal axis too - I would regard myself as slight libertarian/moderate economically/socially liberal). You can be a libertarian capitalist and you can be a libertarian marxist (e.g. Rand Paul in the US would be a libertarian capitalist). You don't believe this is the case?

If you are trying to tightly couple police reform/prison reform with a very left wing economic ideology (i.e. it is all or nothing), then you are dooming yourself to not achieving anything. Democracy is about creating coalitions. Most of the people who are sympathetic to the causes of police and prison reform would recoil from this hard coupling with "destroy capitalism".

by **orathaic** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:25 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:12 pm

orathaic wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:25 am
explain if you agree that we can dismantle the prison system without furthering this goals of dismantling capitalism.
I'm trying to get my head around what it is you're asking, but frankly it's not making much sense. I don't know and I don't care is the only answer that springs instantly to mind.

You are claiming the BLM is trying to dismantle capitalism (which I have not denied).
Also that Prison Abolition is a part of this agenda.

I have claimed that Prison systems exploiting prisoners is equivalent to slavery and thus morally objectionable.

You seem to be denying that prisoners exploited for capitalist profits is a problem.

I'm was asking, if this prison exploitation isn't part of the capitalist system, do you think we can dismantle it without hurting capitalism.

Obviously my position is that capitalism encourages this kind of exploitation and should be dismantled. But you seemed to be rejecting at least one of these steps, despite claiming that BLM wants to dismantle capitalism...

by **Octavious** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:20 pm

orathaic wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:20 am
And to your previous point about B&E, I already addressed the fact that if people are threatened it is violent. As per my definition of violence above.

Yet you seem to be working under the impression that it is somehow possible to have breaking and entering without the homeowners feeling threatened. This is remarkably naive and demonstrates a callous disregard for an innocent person's well-being that is quite unlike you.

by **Octavious** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:12 pm

orathaic wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:25 am
explain if you agree that we can dismantle the prison system without furthering this goals of dismantling capitalism.

I'm trying to get my head around what it is you're asking, but frankly it's not making much sense. I don't know and I don't care is the only answer that springs instantly to mind.

orathaic wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:25 am
Exploitation of imprisoned PoC amounts to slavery and is thus a continuation of centuries of capitalist exploitation under a different name.

However you seem to reject this line of thinking

I believe the American expression "no shit, Sherlock" is appropriate in this instance.

by **orathaic** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:25 am

flash2015 wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:01 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:20 pm
Flash, what are you trying to argue? Are you trying to say that they don't want to to dismantle capitalism? Because they very much do. My suspicions in this area were first aroused by the statement on their fundraising page that says

We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle capitalism"
https://uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

What more do you want?
I am asking for actual evidence that they are implementing this. What are they actually doing to destroy capitalism?

And what, precisely has prison abolition to do with dismantling capitalism?

I have a really clear answer. Exploitation of imprisoned PoC amounts to slavery and is thus a continuation of centuries of capitalist exploitation under a different name.

However you seem to reject this line of thinking, so please explain if you agree that we can dismantle the prison system without furthering this goals of dismantling capitalism.

by **orathaic** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:20 am

Octavious wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:33 pm

Why is, out of interest, that you're perfectly happy with community service as a punishment and yet describe working in prisons as akin to slave labour? Are they not essentially the same thing with a different label?

First, try reading about restorative justice.

Meanwhile, particularly in the US slavery was outlawed EXCEPT for prisoners. It was explicitly allowed. And when laws were passed to specifically target PoC (the war on drugs, as a recent example, but i'm sure the laws go back much further) you get to enslave many PoC again without the same outcry.

And to your previous point about B&E, I already addressed the fact that if people are threatened it is violent. As per my definition of violence above.

But to you specific problem with drug dealing. Selling thing s that people want would be allowed in a free market. It is a service. Poor consumer protections, pushing drugs, taking advantage of addictive personalities or otherwise at risk groups is a problem generally with free markets, and just more stark in relation to drugs.

The easiest way to actually disempower drug dealers is to take away their main source of income. Regulation (incl consumer protections/quality of product) and taxation (vat and possibly an additional sin tax) would allow policing to be focused specifically on the most dangerous/coercive/violent aspects of the trade - while allowing law abiding citizens to provide competition to disrupt the current dealers income.

It will not be perfect by any means, but alcohol and tabacco are already in the imperfect area and we mange them using other economic means to minimise the harm (like bans on advertising/sin taxes).

But this whole area is a separate conversation to prison abolition.

Where in I advocate for removing (expensive and harmful) prison sentences and replacing them with (cheaper and proven effective) education/training and restorative policies.

by **flash2015** » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:01 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:20 pm
Flash, what are you trying to argue? Are you trying to say that they don't want to to dismantle capitalism? Because they very much do. My suspicions in this area were first aroused by the statement on their fundraising page that says

We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle capitalism"
https://uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

What more do you want?

I am asking for actual evidence that they are implementing this. What are they actually doing to destroy capitalism?

by **Octavious** » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:20 pm

Flash, what are you trying to argue? Are you trying to say that they don't want to to dismantle capitalism? Because they very much do. My suspicions in this area were first aroused by the statement on their fundraising page that says

We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle capitalism"

https://uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

What more do you want?

by **flash2015** » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:12 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:00 am
I've lost you completely. Black Lives Matter is a political group which raises a significant amount of funding to fight the issues it cares about. Those issues include abolishing prisons, opening up borders, defunding and abolishing the police, and destroying capitalism. It's not like they're an anti racism group who happens to contain a number of left wing thinkers. They are a hard left group raising money for their campaign to fight for hard left issues. I'm not accusing them of hypocrisy or trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. They seem more or less open and honest, and what they're campaigning for is consistent with their world view. But their world view is pure Marxism. Theirs is not a simple fight against racism. Theirs is a fight against racism armed with the hammer and sickle.

You mention a set of policies - abolishing prisons, opening up borders, defunding police. None of these policies I see as specifically anti-capitalist. My anarchist, pro-capitalist "end the fed/taxation is theft" friends are loving this. If anything open borders especially would be "pro capitalist" as it would allow more efficient allocations of labour. You see otherwise? At least traditionally, weren't communist societies like the soviet union pro-police brutality and pro-prison? Since BLM against these things, doesn't it make it hard to label everything they do marxist?

Coming to your last point how are BLM currently funding the destruction of capitalism? I would assume you know of some plans to organize a coup to take over the US or the UK? Or are you suggesting certain policies (raising the minimum wage, making a more progressive tax system, universal health care, UBI, climate change which should neither be left or right etc.) will all lead to marxism? Or are we OK if we implement one or two of these policies but if we choose more than that we automatically convert into Stalinist Soviet Union with gulags and the rest? Again, I am not really understanding the "marxist" fear here...other than as a weak attempt to change the topic.

Still of course not a fan of the banner. And I do have some frustration with governments waving through or even explicitly supporting the protests...as it made it harder to combat COVID. People were quite rightly complaining of unequal treatment...and it has already had some legal repercussions (e.g. NY state losing a lawsuit over keeping Churches at 25% capacity, the judge specifically mentioning the governments double-standard over the protests as one of the main reasons why they lost).

by **Octavious** » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:33 pm

You don't consider breaking and entering to be violent? That's... astounding. Even if the victim isn't present the emotional impact can be massive. If the victim is present it can be devastating.

And community service for drug dealing? We are a long way apart on that one. A hefty prison term is very much my compromise position, as apparently amputating a limb is frowned upon.

Why is, out of interest, that you're perfectly happy with community service as a punishment and yet describe working in prisons as akin to slave labour? Are they not essentially the same thing with a different label?

by **orathaic** » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:06 pm

Quickly, the locking up part is not required for that kind of training. Which is a huge part of my point.

I think you need to prove that locking people up works as a deterant, and makes society a better, safer place. Rather than talking about the good thing s which can happen equally well outside of the prison system if we invest in alternatives.

I mean we are agreed on the usefulness of labour for learning a skill. So that is something.

As to my definition of violence, les assume I mean to include physical violence, and then also rape, as it literally violates the body of another (whether they are unconscious or frozen in terror) you can probably call all of that sexual violence (which is currently illegal) and finally extend it to include harassment as a form of emotional violence (which is very well understood, particularly when studied in relation to children suffering from emotional abuse, again already illegal). Mainly including harassment because it is often a precursor to murder (and it is too late to punish someone at that point).

Currently victims of harassment are able to get court orders to prevent their harasses from contacting them (ie not a prison sentence) which if it works is fine. Prison sentences for breaching those court orders would remain.

It is notable what I am not including. Breaking and entering would be punishable by community service (falling under property damage) . Whereas threatening someone with a knife or gun and robbing them would be violent crime (emotional violence, even if no-one is injured).

All drug use would be legal, and addiction issue would be dealt with a health problem (ie dept of health, not dept of justice), allowing police resources to be redirected towards drug suplly/production, and the violence associated with the drug trade (this is a big related area in the US as African Americans appear to use drugs at the same rate as white Americans, but are incarcerated at a much higher rate for drug related offences - but to avoid going on a tangent, and try for consistency, I'd say drugs for personal use should be legal, distributing drugs to a community should be punishable by community service - in that community - and violence associated with repaying drug debts or moving in on other people's territory should be punishable with prison time)

And as to your question on vandalism, I may be misusing the word, but my understanding is that any damage is vandalism. From graffiti to the breaking half of breaking and entering.

by **Octavious** » Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:30 pm

I'm really not. I'm pretty certain that the vast majority of internships don't involve being locked up, and being locked up is very much a part of what I was envisioning. Without the locking up bit prisons are an awful lot like hotels with disappointing restaurants. A slightly better quality Holiday Inn, perhaps. But the locking up is described by most people as a key feature of prisons.

Can I quickly return to this response to hooli?

Can I first ask you to define a violent offence? I used to be fairly confident in my understanding of the word violence. Lately however the left has been rather keen on evolving the word and lefties have expanded violence to include swearing, general rudeness, and (very popular lately) being quiet. Are you reverting to the traditional (some would say real) sense of violence for this instance?

Also, where is it that vandalism is worthy of a prison term? It is virtually unheard of in the UK, and I assume most of Europe. Is this one of those major demands that in reality already happens pretty much everywhere outside of Mississippi?

orathaic wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:51 pm
@hooligannon, fair question.

I don't know how to get to prison abolition. But the steps on the way start with removing prison sentences for non-violent offences (and amnesty for those currently held for non-violent offences) - actually during a covid 19 pandemic is the perfect time to trial early release, though doing it enmass might strain the housing system's capacity to house everyone... But still. Imagine all those held on charges relating to weed smoking released.

And when we built better systems, including things like restorative justice (think community service for those who vandalise property), we can talk about violent offenders like George Floyd's murders. I believe Norway has a pretty good system for rehabilitation. Similar to prisons, but people get houses, (on an island which they can't exactly leave) no guards or guns, lots of social worker style supports.

But copy what already works and then look at whether the system is still deeply broken and harmful.

by **orathaic** » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:32 am

Octavious wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:55 am
As much as imprisoning Labour would be rather fun, it's sadly an idea purely for thought experiments.

In terms of prison labour with a small l, it can indeed be a good thing. Getting prisoners used to a work schedule strikes me as an important aspect of rehabilitation into society. Allowing prisoners to build a degree of savings prior to release is also important for rehabilitation, as the last thing you want is to reintroduce a desperately broke chap back into society whose only known method of getting cash quickly is via crime.

What you want to avoid is creating some sort of prison industry built on cheap labour that will undercut legitimate businesses and bugger up the markets, but labour that teaches a skill (learning carpentry or plumbing, say) or labour creating stuff that the state might want but would otherwise not exist (disaster relief blankets for refugee camps springs to mind) strikes me as being fundamentally a good thing.

Apologies for the errant capital L, autocorrect.

You realise you are describing an apprenticeship system which doesn't require prisons to be funded.

Infact redirecting funds from maintaining prisons to supporting decent education and jobs programs is exactly the kind of crime prevention we need to consider.

by **TomareUtsuZo** » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:31 am

I have to say, Octavious schools the shit out of you guys. But, I don't get the idea he's having any effect on your thick skulls.

by **Octavious** » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:55 am

As much as imprisoning Labour would be rather fun, it's sadly an idea purely for thought experiments.

In terms of prison labour with a small l, it can indeed be a good thing. Getting prisoners used to a work schedule strikes me as an important aspect of rehabilitation into society. Allowing prisoners to build a degree of savings prior to release is also important for rehabilitation, as the last thing you want is to reintroduce a desperately broke chap back into society whose only known method of getting cash quickly is via crime.

What you want to avoid is creating some sort of prison industry built on cheap labour that will undercut legitimate businesses and bugger up the markets, but labour that teaches a skill (learning carpentry or plumbing, say) or labour creating stuff that the state might want but would otherwise not exist (disaster relief blankets for refugee camps springs to mind) strikes me as being fundamentally a good thing.

by **orathaic** » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:05 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:36 pm

orathaic wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:42 pm
And lastly, though we both agree the US is far more broken. I was first introduced to the concept of prison abolition while living in Bristol. UK based folks who care about UK problems.
The UK and Bris'ol has plenty of leftie enthusiasts such as yourself, I agree. There was a cafe just under the 51 02 building in Stokes Croft where I had a few fun debates with Green Party types and their ilk. That doesn't make them right, or give me reason to side with them.

I don't think we'll achieve anything more here. Thank you for outlining your position. I passionately disagree, probably as much as you disagree with mine. It is not something I can see my opinion changing on.

Hang on a sec.

What about reform? Is there nothing you agree with me on (aside form the US, though perhaps you think prison Labour is a good thing and should be introduced to the UK).

by **Octavious** » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:36 pm

orathaic wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:42 pm
And lastly, though we both agree the US is far more broken. I was first introduced to the concept of prison abolition while living in Bristol. UK based folks who care about UK problems.

The UK and Bris'ol has plenty of leftie enthusiasts such as yourself, I agree. There was a cafe just under the 51 02 building in Stokes Croft where I had a few fun debates with Green Party types and their ilk. That doesn't make them right, or give me reason to side with them.

I don't think we'll achieve anything more here. Thank you for outlining your position. I passionately disagree, probably as much as you disagree with mine. It is not something I can see my opinion changing on.

Political statement on homepage

Post a reply

Expand view Topic review: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage

Re: Political statement on homepage