...if true. What evidence do we have that, like 87.3% of the bloggers on the web, she isn't exaggerating or outright lying?

The issue worth discussing isn't whether what she claimed actually happened, but the issue with a culture that teaches such a limited definition of rape that actual tape happens far too often; and addressing this culture among the youth of this country.

"actual tape happens"

Sounds like a sticky situation. And yes, the issue in this particular instance is whether it actually happened or a soap box blogger is making it up.

I don't see how it wouldn't be relevant if it was a mere Parable of Ms. Norman but w/e.

@Draug. Yes, a lot of mitigating things can be said, and many points on the larger discussion remain weak. In particular, I was thinking about commenting on the analytical causality of the OP: personal anecdote -> deep roots in culture.

But instead of commenting on those I chose to just highlight the beauty of the blog.

Interesting post, dub, thank you. I found a lot of her side observations pretty spot on. Anyway, as Draug says, we don't know if this happened, and parts of it did come across as a little unrealistic / too "narrated,", but by and large, I suspect it happened about like that.

Rape*

Glad you spotted that typo instead of responding to my actual point. Simply restating your position doesn't count as a response. While it does matter if she actually did what she said, what matters far more is the issue her alleged actions are intended to address. Are you saying that the so called "rape culture" doesn't exist or us less important than if a blogger was truthful in recounting an anecdote?

Is*

Puddle - We (the community) have had this discussion countless times before. I am strictly approaching this from this specific blog. I have stated my position numerous time that rape subcultures exist and that we need to take measures to eliminate them, but that for a true rape culture to exist a simple majority of people would have to find situations like the one here in Ohio to be a travesty of justice and I don't believe they do. If they do, then it is a travesty of justice those assholes didn't get put away for life in an ultramax with a cellmate named Bubba who rapes them every night. The travesty was in the way the victim was treated by airing her name on the media (cocksucking media scumbag!). But I believe the majority of the US do *not* feel sorry for those so called "young men" (I'll just call them what they are, animals) and therefore a true rape culture does not exist.

It may seem like semantics, but we need to focus our work to end rape by focusing on the subcultures where in it is considered acceptable to rape some one who is passed out as well as in educating people to protect themselves. And I know that is where we will clearly disagree.

I do not view telling young women to think before they act and to be safe as any different than telling a young driver to keep both hands on the wheel, turn off the radio, wear their seatbelt, and be aware of what is around them whent hey are driving is blaming them when they get in an accident. I believe it is havign their best interest and their safety at heart when I preach the virtues of safety in driving or in going out and partying. And that is where I always hear the "you're blaiming the victim" out of people. Telling young women that they should go in groups of two or more and to keep an eye on their friends is not blaiming them. The guy who rapes them is to blaim. It is encouraging them to act wisely. Telling them they shoudln't wear a miniskirt and tight, low-cut top alone walking through Central Park in New York City or Over-the-Rhine right here in Cincinnati isn't blaiming them; it's giving them samrt advice to keep them safe.

"I have stated my position numerous time that rape subcultures exist"

If you will note in this blog, this woman isn't claiming that she, and she alone knows what rape is. She is claiming the *youth* - a specific SUB-culture of America - have no idea what rape is.

It may be the fault of the adults teaching (or not teaching) the youth that they are this naive...but clearly adults know what rape is, and the problem resides with the youth.

Regarding youth...you might also note that around *here* that are quite a bit of youth. My general experience with the local youth is this: They think they know everything. If you ever suggest that their lack of experience is in fact a drawback, and that they might do well to listen to adult who have more education and experience, they will give you quite a bit of attitude. In other words, the youth around here are difficult, at best, to educate about anything, because they already know everything. (I wonder why they don't just go take a test and bypass high school and college and rule the world?)

This is *not* to disrespect youth or say that they know nothing or have no value. They have value, they have good ideas at times, and they have some knowledge. They also have "new" ideas that others have already tried, which failed. Etc etc etc...

The point, though, is that the problem lies with the youth moreso than the adult/public at large...and it is those same youth that pretty much don't want to listen to what adults have to say...which is a problem.

<pour gas...lights match....runs...there's about to be a youth shit storm...>

Semantics aside, there have been surveys (well, at least this one: http://www.fearus.org/#sthash.spV62fwm.dpbs) as to when rape is okay. The results are startling, and none of the answers are terribly surprising when compared with the anecdote above. As semck said, probably not 100% factual, but probably by and large true.

Draug, I'm not sure your contention is right. Do you remember how the news agencies were commenting on how this would affect the perpetrators' lives and sympathizing with them? They had to issue an apology, as though they really thought the person to shun was the victim for ruining these athletes' lives. Just because the majority say it is justice (the final ruling, that is) doesn't mean the majority think it is. We've been conditioned to know the right things to say. Doesn't mean we agree with them.

MoW, it is a logical fallacy, I grant, to extrapolate from one anecdote to all of society. If we were able to research this more, I wouldn't be surprised if this anecdote was the norm rather than the exception, especially when compared with the survey I linked to above. Surely these opinions are rooted somewhere. Why not the impressionable age in the anecdote?

NOTE: The survey - a poll of HIGH SCHOOL students. Once again, a specific, limited *sub-culture* of the US. Indicative of an education and PARENTING problem...but not indicative of an overall total cultural problem.

Krellin -- if a problem is "limited" to the education system, parenting, and students, what more is needed before it becomes a "cultural" problem?

"Do you remember how the news agencies were commenting on how this would affect the perpetrators' lives and sympathizing with them?" Uh, yes. I do remember. I even mentioned how the media victimized her again. I just only mentioned their mentioning her name, but the news media is *not* the spokespeople of the masses. They have their own fucking agenda and do *not* represent the majority of the American public. They shoudl be ashamed of themselves for goin there as well and I have gone to several of their web sites (CNN and Fox) and givne them shit for their handling and making the boys out to be some kind of innocent martyrs.

But you do not give the general populace enough credit. YEs people are stupid. But individuals see it and say "What the fuck is worng with those nescasters?! Theose boys raped that poor girl!". They don't just go "The news said 'oh the poor boys' so I guessthey got railroaded." The populace knows better.

And note that the media had to issue an apology. Why? Because the majority not only knew the media were wrong, but enough of us stood up and told the media to shut the fuck up and apologize. So the fact they apologize actually *validates* my claim that it is a subculture and I now add to that claim that the media is helping to perpetuate that sub culture.

You want to know what doesn't help? When movies like 'Knight and Day' make references to Tom Cruises character drugging Cameron Diazes and taking off all her clothes to put her in a bikini as if it's no big deal.

Is*

Jesus Christ. Your first instinct is "she's lying"?? To what end? I cannot fathom why you would be so dead-set on doing nothing about rape.

"It's a sub-culture" .... really now? American youth are a subculture? They dont' reflect *anything at all* about mainstream American culture?

Good god.

@thucydides: try not to have an aneurism.

tryin every day bruh

thucy - go rape a baby, you fucking douche bag.

whats with everyones sudden obsession with rape?

Thucy - Yes, today's youth is a *subculture*. Let me spell it out for you... There are fewer youth in the age range of which we speak (12-25) than adults. Therefore they are a *subculture*. That is, a subset of the main culture with their own cultural idioms guiding them.

Subculture - A cultural group within a larger culture, often having beliefs or interests at variance with those of the larger culture.

Actually, there are far more in that age range than there are baby-boomers, and it tends to be the baby-boomer generation that are the cultural elite.

hey krellin: keep whining and play me the world's saddest song on the world's smallest violin

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/lebron-smallest-violin.gif

Yo Draug I know what I subculture is, yeah? I'm just saying that it's pretty blindingly ignorant to claim that if something is going on in the youth culture that it is somehow not a nationwide problem or at all indicative of the entire culture.

I still, by the way, do not understand what investment you have in being so determined to deny that rape is a serious problem and and a cultural problem. What exactly is at stake for you? How would it hurt to take it seriously, even if we were wrong?

Thucy - Go rape another baby/ Fucking douche bag baby killing asshole.

Thucy - You don't know shit about sub cultures or anything. Just grunt your acknowledgement and go away, you fucking moron.

http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?pid=DEC_10_SF1_P12&prodType=table

I don't know where you got you rnumbers from you there are only a little over half as many youth between 15 and 24 as there are baby boomers There are about 45 million youth in the that age range. Even if we go down to 10, you only get 65 million. There are over 79 million baby boomers alone and that doesn't include the 30 somethings and 40 somethings or the retirees. Youth is a sub culture as not even 15% of the population are between 15 and 24.

Oh and mendax - The baby boomers aren't the elite at this point. It's the 40 somethings and early 50 somethings. We aren't baby boomers as some of the younger in that group (40-45) are *children* of boomers and boomers are all pretty much retirees.

http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/dead-horse.gif

I re-state:

I still, by the way, do not understand what investment you have in being so determined to deny that rape is a serious problem and and a cultural problem. What exactly is at stake for you? How would it hurt to take it seriously, even if we were wrong?

Where the harm is comes in wasting effort and money where it isn't needed. Spend the money and use the resources where it *is* needed, in educating the subcultures like the youth. Blaming all of society is a waste and actually serves to turn those who are not part of it off.

The best approach is to approach society as a whole and say "The youth of America have a problem as do groups X, Y, and Z. That problem is a subculture of rape. Can you help us. We want it to stop." instead of bashing us about the head saying "*You're the problem! You encourage the (non-existent) rape subculture when you tell young women to protect themselves!"

It's the old "more flies with honey than vinegar" idea. Society as a whole wants to help, but when you holler at them and blame them, they'd rather flip you the bird and tell you to fuck off.

You know, Draugnar, you may have misread me. I'm not talking about spending money, I'm talking about raising awareness so that everyone in this country simply *behaves* differently regarding rape. The whole nation needs to talk about it more openly, especially with children, and needs to watch out and guard against doing things like victim-blaming or contributing to discouragement of reporting.

"Society as a whole wants to help..."

Really because you sure as hell don't give that impression. In fact it seems with you that you would do anything to deny that rape is a serious issue that we all need to take seriously.

"but when you holler at them and blame them, they'd rather flip you the bird and tell you to fuck off."

It strikes me as depressingly petty that being mildly insulted by rhetoric from someone like me is apparently more important to you than the horror of commonplace rape when it comes to deciding whether you're going to a damn thing about it.

Who gives a shit about your "blame" and ego, just stop rape. You can go have your tantrums in private.

It's not that what you want to do is wrong, but how you are going about it. Instead of accusing society in general, come to them asking for help. Don't call it something it isn't but call it what it is: a subculture found amongst today's youth and promoted by the media and uncaring law enforcement (cops and DAs who victimized the victim again or question their case when it is someone famous in the community).

I've never raped anyone or laughed at a rape joke or paid to see a comedian who males them. I've never blamed the victim and I have always gotten offended when someone else does or when they try to pity a convicted rapist. So what would you have me do?

People who rape other people are so depressed that they can't get any the right way. And people who talk about rape for this long obviously think about rape way too much.

+1 draugnar
-1 everyone else