I think a common thread throughout U.S. dealings with other nations is the assumption that the people of those nations want to be like us, ad have our version of economic and political freedoms. This often leads to disastor, historical cases include

The invasion of quebec during the Revolution where the Habitants showed little desire to cooperate, later in 1812, a military envoy was sent to an armed group of habitants on the precipice of battle to offer them includion into the American army, he was shot dead.

Tripoli which Jefferson mused would become an agrarian republic if deprived of its reliance on pirates (I shit you not)


Invasion of the Philippines where Americans expected to be seen as liberators instead became embroiled in a nasty war.

Vietnam/Iraq/Afganistan.

Yet despite the many examples to the contrary Americans have thrroughout the century clung to the idea that others, even if they don't know it, long to be like us.

What is it about America that causes this. National charecter doesn't exist in my opinion, so what about our ideals, institutions, ideology, etc. cause this delusion? Interested in hearing what you think.

"I think this delusion is largely the product of propaganda put out by our political elites to talk the American People into supporting foreign wars. "

Perhaps, but how do you explain elites like the War Hawks and to a lesser extent Madison who genuinely believed that conquering Canada would be a mere matter of marching? If they weren't delusional, and expected a slow slog through Canada why challenge the greatest military power in the world?

...I don't assume that at all...?

I assume, maybe, that people want to be "free," and that, on the whole, North America/Europe are "more free" than the Middle East/Africa/Chinese/DPRK-controlled Asia...

And maybe THOSE people would prefer our style of government and laws to, say, having to praise the Great Leader Kim Jong Il for their daily ration of molding bread while half their family dies of starvation and KJI sits up in Pyongyang drinking Cognac...

But as far as everyone wanting barbeques and baseball and firewords and gas-guzzlers and crap action flicks and other tropes of American culture...

No, I don't think the people of Pyongyang are waiting for that or wanting it.

I think they might secretly/sub-consciously wish they didn't live in a police state, and I think Saudi women would appreciate a few more Western-style rights...

But nothing of the "Amerikuh--fuck yeah!"-style.

I'm probably not as knowledgeable about that period in history as you are, but I suspect many an American thought that 1) all of the French Catholic Quebecois wouldn't be at all motivated to fight for England at that time, what with the concurrent Battle Royale between England and France, and 2) Canada was lightly defended and not a strategic priority for England, for the same reason.

I don't think this pathology is particularly unique to the US, although the lack of ethnic cohesion means that the US is much more of an ideological country than most, so there's much more ideological instruction and a kind of missionary ethos that's always been a current in American politics.

I think most of this is just a liberal veneer it gives to wars of aggression for the control of markets and trade routes.

I mean all wars result from uncertainty about relative power. If people knew that the war would be a long war of attrition they would never launch a war. If the WWI powers knew that the war would last 4+ years it never would have started. Everyone goes into war thinking it'll be quick.

But most don't necessarily believe the populous will greet us with open arms like americans constantly do. To answer tolstoys point, you are exactly right about americans thinking the french canadians wouldn't support the english. They even thought many would aid the americans despite the fact that this did not occur in 1775. The question is why.

"...I don't assume that at all...?

I assume, maybe, that people want to be "free," and that, on the whole, North America/Europe are "more free" than the Middle East/Africa/Chinese/DPRK-controlled Asia...

And maybe THOSE people would prefer our style of government and laws to, say, having to praise the Great Leader Kim Jong Il for their daily ration of molding bread while half their family dies of starvation and KJI sits up in Pyongyang drinking Cognac...

But as far as everyone wanting barbeques and baseball and firewords and gas-guzzlers and crap action flicks and other tropes of American culture..."

Yes, that was exactly what I was going for when i included the invasion of quebec in 1775 as an example, barbeques and crap action flicks.

Your statement about freedom is what I was talking about Obi, not fireworks.

and btw why does my spelling suck so much on here

I think it was pure opportunism to appeal to the Quebec population. Quebec was strategically valuable and thought to not be defended very much. They thought there was a shot that the French population might be displeased with British rule and could play on their sense of solidarity with France in order to gain their support. I think they knew they their pleas fell on deaf ears since they got no representatives from Quebec in the Continental Congresses, but proceeded with the invasion anyway.

"Yes, that was exactly what I was going for when i included the invasion of quebec in 1775 as an example, barbeques and crap action flicks."

...

You're judging the American mindset in 2011 by what it was in 1775?

By that logic, does that mean Obama's only 3/5ths of a President? (I know 3/5ths was later, but still...really, why judge the present by *that far* in the past?

In 1775 we were a bunch of angry farmers and fishermen...
In 2011 we're a bunch of angry computer technicians and tv talk show hosts...)

;)

And I think the whole "we invaded Canada" thing is a bit overblown, anyway...

It was a British protectorate, and we were fighting the British--

As far as Canada as a sovereign, independent nation goes...well, we share the largest un-militarized border in the free world...I think we can safely say Americans and Canadians biggest quarrels come over who's going to win the Stanley Cup and who's beer tastes the best.

Wait, they don't? I'm pretty sure everybody else wishes they were American. I mean, we're the richest, most famous, fattest, greediest nation on the planet and everyone wants to be just like Jersey Shore.

"well, we share the largest un-militarized border in the free world."

That's because American capital owns Canada. Why would we fight a country that allows us to control its manufacturing base and energy resources?

Generally speaking, unless someone lives in a craphole people tend to assume that everyone a) thinks like them and b) wants the same things that they do.

Its not just an American thing

@obiwan, Canada as an independent commonwealth nation has much the same relationships with the British Empire as Britain (an independent common wealth nation) has with the British Empire...

That is to say, Canadians still largely identify with that British Empire and the continuity of existence Canada has had... Also i'm pretty sure before Canada became an independent sovereign nation the US had a demilitarized border with them (but that is a guess).

The process of becoming the sovereign independent commonwealth nation was a slow one.

as for 'those other countries' wanting freedom (like the US) that doesn't mean they want to be the US, they may preer US-like freedoms, but they may also prefer their own system built on their own ideas which happen to include freedom but not the massive wealth divide present in the US.

Taking Japan as an example. They have a much smaller rich-poor divide and they have fairly low taxation (so not redistributing wealth via taxation, unlike, say, sweden) but they have a very different culture, work ethic, idea of social life etc.

Freedom should mean the freedom to be yourself, and culturally that means being your own culture, not merely emulating some other powerful culture. (i note, i think it's crazy that plastic surgery/nose jobs are massively popular in Iran, a 16th birthday present even, mostly because it is seen as a sign of success and emulates western culture, in some sense, without directly violating Islamic principles - this is the kind of adoption of cultural/business practices i'd expect is normal the world over.)

'And I think the whole "we invaded Canada" thing is a bit overblown, anyway...'

Um, why, I'm aware that your knowledge of history is pretty piss poor but how do you explain speeches on the floor of congress calling for war with Britain to allow for the invasion of Canada? How can you think is a "bit overblown"

@SC - because we didn't win, duh

"I think we can safely say Americans and Canadians biggest quarrels come over who's going to win the Stanley Cup and who's beer tastes the best." - Sorry obi but as far as Canadians are concerned these issues are settled. Whoever wins the Stanley Cup, be it the Canadiens, or the Red Wings, the Flames or the Stars, the ratio of Canadians to Americans on the team will still be more or less 3:1. And surely no one has tried to argue that American beer is better than Canadian beer.

Also, more seriously, @ orathiac - "That is to say, Canadians still largely identify with that British Empire and the continuity of existence Canada has had"...uhhhh what? No we don't. Especially not in Quebec where I live. But even in Toronto where I grew up, we think of ourselves as Canadian. Not as part of the British empire. That's ridiculous.

@Mafia, not part of the British Empire, but neither does anyone else, because the British Empire doesn't exist anymore.

of course you identify as Canadian. (just as I identify as Irish) But did America invade Canada or did it invade the British Imperial Colony to the north?

blah blah blah....maybe it's because just a little over 200 years ago we became a free nation, and in **short order** came to *Dominate* the world, both in terms of economic prosperity, and then militarily, because of our **superior** form of government....which USED to be a **Constitutioanlyl Limited** Federal government.

Question....how many Third-World Puke-Holes are hated (and byu that, I mean ENVIED) by the world? Answer...NONE...because they aren't worth hating...or envying.

But when you look at the most prosperous nation in the world, with the strongest military, and the most personal freedoms....you must look to one place: The United States of America.

Which is why so many people from every corner of the earth do whatever they can to come here to live their lives.

The only thing wrong about this post is the initial premise: The idea that poeple do NOT want to be like us. The fact of the matter is, MOST free people DO want to be like us. Do their respective governments???? HELL no....because then they would lose control over their populations.

But i can walk through the mall and see people of every nationality enjoying the wealth and prosperity of America. I can see ridiculous Muslim women walking around in full head and face coverings carrying bags stuffed full of Victoria's Secret underthings....and that is anecdotal proof enough that people from every corner of the earth crave to taste the wealth of America.

As for you jackasses that DO NOT enjoy our welath...or CLAIM not to because (hypocritically) it goes against yoru so-called belief....then I encourage you assmunches to live like the 3rd world hell-holes you admire. START by throwing out your cell phones, turning off your cable TV, cutting your internet and throwing out your computers. The loss of that at SMALL bit of American/Western prosperitiy (brought to you by America) would be enough to drive most of you insane. Which we will never know...because none of you haters has big enough balls to turn off the high-tech that western/American culture has brought you for so very cheap a price.


Fucking moronic hypocrites.

Americans and hockey... exactly at which place is Mike Modano in all-time point ladder?

Oh, we definitely say that during the war of 1812 the US invaded Canada, and we totally credit ourselves with that military victory. I'm not kidding about this. It's kind of one of those national myths. Canada beat the US in war, we say.