http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/04/is_a_biometric_national_id_car.html

trying my best not to let my own bias leak into this.
if anyone has any "opposing" links please put them up.

sorry for the multiple posts.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anis-shivani/the-democrats-new-immigra_b_558016.html

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/headline/yet-again-national-id/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKQUXhC2VXQ (fox news)

http://littlealexinwonderland.wordpress.com/2010/04/28/justin-raimondo-is-wrong-on-immigration/

again, if anyone has any other links/info please post them. I'm trying not to color this with my own bias, but thats impossible.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/desert-derangement-syndrome/?hp

Why not post your own opinion when you post it Sicaruus? Why wait for someone to disagree with you and then pounce?

And I'm surprised you can't find a link for a view you disagree with. Are you really not trying to be biased?

All I see is a bunch of links. Let's see...let's make illegal immigrant ILLEGAL. What a concept. For anybody that does NOT live in Arizona who disagrees with this law, how about start sending your cash donations to the AZ state treasury to help them cover the cost of all the illegal aliens on the school system, health care system and law enforcement system. And apart from costs, the incredible rise in violence within Mexico that is spreading across the broder...yeah, crime tends to come with illegals - they aren't ALL happy berry-pickers and brick layers. I can't believe that a law meant to enforce legal immigration is even debatable. And before anyone cries racism, why don't you talk to the Hispanic community that has LEGALLY immigrated and get their opinion. You'll most likely find a majority of legal immigrants expect the same from other, NO MATTER their race.

By the way, having recently worked in the staffing industry (temp labor) for the last three years in Michigan, I have found that Hispanic workers - LEGAL ones - are just about the best workers we ever had. I love them. You'd be surprised at how many business owners in Detroit would specifically ask us for them...so before you call me a racist, I have NO PROBLEM with Hispanics...I just believe laws (including immigration laws, particular post 9/11) have a purpose

I do hope that these openly racist business owners in Detroit who specifically ask for Hispanics are given the appropriate punishment.

I gave them the workers I had available that fit their open positions. I'm not saying I did that - but I find it interesting when even minority business owners in Detroit (you know, the kind Jesse Jackson says can't be racists) acknowledge the value of the Hispanic work ethic. But that wasn't my point...I was just deflecting the inevitable "You are a racist if you want immigration laws enforced" attack on me. I love immigration, my family is immigrants comprised of people from all over the world...who came here legally.

The only problem I can see with this is that it could ope the door for these sort of requirements for citizens. I probably can't prove my citizenship if I were pulled over in Arizona. That being said, it's ludicrous to say that actually punishing people who are blatantly breaking the law is a bad idea.

But, Octavius, you are fooling yourself if you don't think business owners everywhere, in every country, don't discriminate. It's the human condition, like it or not.

Invictus, I suspect when you gave a few personal number (socsec, driver's licence) it isn't going to take long for them to hook into a database and find your picture, finger prints, other things to verify you are you. but it's just a step towards the National ID card

@ Krellin
If business owners didn't discriminate there would be no need for discrimination laws. We introduce these laws to make life fairer. To not enforce the law is to abandon the concept of fair play and a just society.

@Octavius - the AZ law has nothing to do with discrimination. that being said, you can right a million laws and business owners will still discriminate - to think otherwise is to be a utopian fool. I walk into an Arab restaurant, I see Arab staff. I walk into a Caldean business, it's filled with Caldeans. I walk into a black owned business in Pontiac or Detroit, and I give the evil eye for even walking in, even though I there on business. So let me assure you, having been in biz-to-biz sales, our world of races is full of racism. Despite opinions to the contrary, whites do not hold exclusivity in racist attitudes... and it will never end. Our President recently gave a speech where he wanted to reach out to (listed a bunch of races and genders) - and my particular description was left out! Imagine that! Mayor of New Orleans gave a public speech about turning his city into a "Chocolate City, a majority black city" he said. So before this forum becomes about racism - which the AZ law is NOT about - understand that racism is UNIVERSAL and every group of people practices discrimination.

*"write" a million laws...my bad, before I get jumped for a spelling error...lol

@Krellin - Just as a point of clarity, could you define what you think "reasonable grounds" to ask somebody to prove their citizenship are?

The law is a good one. Simply enforces the "illegal" aspect of their immigration here. Don't cry racism. I'd endorse the same plan if there were waves of Albanians, British, or Canadians coming over the border.

@ Krellin
I was not insisting that the AZ law was about discrimination, but merely responding to your seeming acceptance of discrinination in the business world. From my perspective I see nothing wrong in AZ trying to control its own immigration by whatever methods it sees fit. If I was a US citizen, however, I'd be slightly concerned that a state was meddling in laws that should be tackled from a national perspective.

The AZ law could have been better written. But I understand the frustration caused by the lack of action from the US Congress. Using accusations of racism as the motive for the law is just pushing buttons. @ krellin Sometimes when walking my dog I do not have my ID with me. What happens if I'm questioned by the police let's say because it's late in the evening?

@lulzworth - "reasonable grounds" to ask somebody to prove citizenship: Employment, or you have otherwise come into contact with the government for other reasons (pulled over, need government assistance for health care, etc.).

@Octavius - ARIZONE believe it is a federal issue, too! MOST of America thinks it is a Federal issue!!!! Obama has decided, again, not to tackle it this election cycle and has passed the buck just like every prior administration. BUT, AZ does have to right to protect itself from financial and security risks. States DO have independant rights apart from the Feds.

@ warspite....So walking your dog at night, what exactly are you doing to prompt the cops to ask you for ID??? Window peeping? lol Regardless of the AZ law, people get arrested all the time without ID and the authorities manage to figure out who they are. So I'm not sure what your point is?

@krellin Never worked night shift have you? :P You do not need to be doing anything wrong to be stopped by the police. All they need to say is your activity was unusual, and walking your dog late at night in some areas could be defined as unusual. The point is many people do not always have ID on them, and the AZ law states you can be arrested and held if you can't prove US citizenship, in other words ID. That basicly gives them the right to arrest and holding someone for nothing other than not having ID with them.

@ Warspite - no, I've worked in neighborhoods before where - because I was a white guy pulling up in a repair van - the locals thought it was OK to bust out my windows and steal all my tools and equipment while I was inside seeing what repairs I needed to do, while probably 10 or 15 people were on the streets to clearly see the activity.

Guess what, we live in an imperfect world. Sometimes people get held for the wrong reasons...and then they get released. I hardly think you will be deported for walking your dog at night if you are a citizen. But what is the alternative? Not enforce the law at all? Here's a suggestion - if you are going to walk your dog at night, CARRY ID. As for me, I won't do business in communities where my skin color could get me beaten and robbed or killed, because my family is too important than a dollar.

You know, there is NO SUCH THING as a perfect solution. Everyone will always be able to find a problem with whatever we do. Air bags kill...fluorescent bulbs spread mercury when they break...people are presumed innocent and yet sometimes the innocent get convicted - but more often the guilty go free. But failure to even attempt enforcement means the guilty will ALWAYS go free.

I would like to see - JUST ONCE - the Liberals in this country offer a solution to the immigration problem instead of simply pointing out the potential hazards of possible solutions. (and if you are not a Liberal and just playing Devil's advocate, then OK. If you are against the measure - WHAT is your solution to ILLEGAL immigration?)

I'm not against the ideal of better enforcement of immigration laws. I just want better written laws. No one should be concerned about having ID with them just to walk down the street. Any time of day, or night. The other concern I have is because the law is open to abuse it will not make it through the courts. Than any future attempts to pass a better, or a federal law will be endangered by the political fallout.

Kind of stupid. A little draconian... I don't object to the idea of "SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS" as long as the rules about it aren't too hard to follow.

What I object to more is the whole idea that they are basically only going to ask Mexicans for them.

So - WHAT is your solution to the illegal MEXICAN immigration problem? Start questioning little old white ladies? Haul in all the Asains off the street?

"Officer, I saw the guy that robbed my house...he was x feet tall, had blue hair and green skin" ...<crackle...crackle...> "Calling all cars, shake down everyone you see...we have a robber on the loose." Real smart.

As to what would I do to improve the illegal immigration solution. First: Simplify the law for legal immigration. The complexity only discourages legal applicates. Second: Come down hard on people who hire the illegals. This will lower demand, thus incentive to come here illegally.