what sort of dosage were you taking?
i've had rather irregular sleeping patterns for several years now, and never even thought about doing anything for them.

i've been advised to take 3mg a night to help me.

And if you're curious at what my sleep schedule was:

Monday 12pm to 6pm Monday
Tuesday 12pm to 6pm Tuesday
Wednesday 12pm to 6pm Wednesday
Thursday 12pm to 8pm Thursday
Friday 11pm to 6am Saturday
Saturday 11pm to 6am Sunday
Sunday 4pm to 8pm Sunday

I was often so exhausted from work that falling asleep was no problem. The problem days were Friday and Sunday and of course any day where I didn't get to sleep until 2pm or 2am.

I actually worked so much overtime that the weeks where I didn't work overtime were the ones where I needed extra melatonin.

I went through a lot of experimentation to find the best way to force a sleep cycle, but knowing the consequences of over-using melatonin, here is what I recommend:

Mix your melatonin with water to have more control over the dose. I used eight 3mg tablets in a 2-litre bottle to start (that's about 3mg per 8 ounce glass)

I'd start with half a glass,
40 minutes before being in bed (light's off!).
Do NOT take more that night if you are still having trouble falling asleep at your new time.

So you'll end up with
Day 1 - 4 ounces
Day 2 to 4 - 6 ounces
Day 5 to 7 - 5 ounces
Day 8 to 10 - 4 ounces
Day 11 to 13 - 2 ounces
Day 14 and 15 - 1 ounce (end of bottle)

Other suggestions:
- Don't stop drinking the glass of water after your "treatment," I found that I'd began to associate sleep with the drink, and it helps even when it's just water.
- Try to drink chamomile tea (aka Sleepy Time) during the "treatment," it really helps.

Sorry, that schedule is wrong:
I meant:
Day 11 to 13 - 3 ounces
Day 14 and 15 - 2 ounces

Melatonin levels are raised naturally by smoking marijuana. =P

You can also use lenses that block blue light wavelengths to increase your natural biosynthesis of melatonin.

ok Chrisp. are you a stoner or just a casual user of pot. I really don't care just that in the hallucenigens thread you took an active Pro-pot stance

PS not a narc. some of my best freinds do pot.

Any marijuana worth smoking is more expensive than melatonin. And I could not fall asleep with goggles on.

Also, don't do drugs. I don't, anymore.

how much is melatonin? i would beg to differ in California

I don't partake but i know it runs about 20 bucks a gram here

or ounce or whatever

Considering you only need 24-25mg to alter a sleep schedule, I'd say it is cheaper no matter where you are.

I've had the same bottle of 5mg melatonin tablets for over four years now, and I believe it was $12.99

okay just wondering.

well considering melatonin sale is no regulated in ireland, i'm not sure how i'll get my hands on any...

or the price, i think i'd find it easier to get weed/hash, but would rather not be dependant on it because it has many other side effects (and can be addictive) i'm happy enough to smoke it casually, just not daily.

I don't know if I agree with your method of taking the Melatonin, Geofram. You aren't guaranteed that it is dissolving properly if you use tablets mixed with water, and it isn't easy/convenient to measure out the correct number of ounces each night.

The best way to take it is to cycle it, a week on, and then a week off, with a consistent dosage each night. Repeat. Melatonin is a naturally occuring hormone in the body. It is generated as part of your circadian rhythm. It is further influenced by daylight. Your body becomes conditioned to naturally create it both as the sun goes down, and then furthermore when your body's clock says it's time for bed. Taking it long term without cycling it is very likely to condition your body to become dependent - in other words, your body will begin to think it doesn't need to create the melatonin naturally, and when you stop taking it, you won't be able to sleep.

You can buy sublingual tablets, that dissolve very quickly under the tongue. They are typically flavored, taste good, and are cheap. The benefit to the sublingual tablets is that they are absorbed faster, and more readily than standard tablets, since they bypass normal digestion. If you take sublingual tablets, a normal dosage is 1-3 milligrams. If you take a standard tablet, the dosage ranges from 1-5 milligrams. Start off with a lower dose and increase it until you begin noticing the desired results.

Finally, it's not necessary to take it long term on a cycle. If you expect that you are going to have a hard time getting to sleep, it is ok, and still very effective to take it just one night. The catch is that you have to take it sooner... 1-2 hours before bed. If you are looking for something to take longer term, using the cycling method, you can take it closer to bedtime, but the first few nights you may still experience some sleeplessness.

One final thing to note - Melatonin makes you dream stupidly, and vividly. I don't know why, but myself and everyone I know that has taken it have all agreed. As far as other side effects, the only thing I've ever heard is dependency if taken for a long period of time. I myself never had any side effects short of the most retarded dreams I've ever had :-)

By the way, for a time, I was a certified sports nutritionist, and a floating manager of 3 GNCs in my area, just so you don't think I'm just copying wiki or something.

I've never had dissolution problems and shot glasses make an excellent measuring tool for this.

I wasn't a fan of the cycling method. I found that the changes between cycles were too drastic to produce a functioning sleep cycle I could use after I no longer wanted to take melatonin.

Working in cycles is also a much longer time to try and fix a sleep schedule with. It took a maximum of two weeks to get my schedule on track using my water-down method. Going through cycles, especially week-long cycles, means upwards of a month before you are straight.

No one should ever consider using melatonin long term unless directed by a physician. Use it to right a wrong sleep schedule, and that's about it.

You're right about the dreams, mine were very vivid and silly.

Please don't get the idea that I'm trying to 'bash' your method or something. The art and act of sleep differs wildly between all of us, I just wanted to suggest the method I preferred over the others I had tried.

Also, I would caution anyone from strong-arming your sleep schedule until you've exhausted all other methods. Make sure you've got a good environment to sleep in and are getting plenty of exercise. If you think there is something wrong outside of your control, see a doctor and participate at a sleep clinic.

@Rado: thanks, i've already read the wikipedia article, thought i'd get some advice from real people, so thanks.

I had heard about the wicked dreams bit too.

did i mention 6 years of poor sleeping patterns? i'm only worried i'll be treating a sympton rather than the cause.

I take melatonin most every worknight. I'm using 2.5MG these days and I take the sublingual where you hold it under your tongue for rapid absorption...

Hey, orathaic, interested in a relatively high caliber game? Check out the annonimousannihilation thread, we need another person, so let me know!

@Geofram - also, please don't think I'm bashing your method. Since melatonin is not FDA regulated, there is no "set" way to take it. There are 2 important things to note - first, you are, actually, in a sense, cycling it by gradually reducing the dosage. This helps prevent your body from getting conditioned to stop creating melatonin on its own. Second, you found a method that works for you.

For Orathaic, if melatonin is not available to you, there are a few alternatives for you. I am recalling a lot of this from memory, so please double check this before taking it as fact. Look for a product called 5-HTP. It's a synthetic compound (in pill form) that your body converts into the amino acid Tryptophan (Tryptophan itself is illegal to purchase in the United States... don't know about Ireland, but if you can get it, research it first, I don't know much about it). At any rate, Tryptophan regulates your body's Seratonin output, and Seratonin in turn regulates your body's natural melatonin output (and has the added benefit of being a sort of 'happy pill'). If you can't buy Melatonin, it's unlikely that you'll be able to find 5-HTP or Tryptophan, but it's worth a shot.

If you can't find that, herbs should be readily available at most nutrition stores. Look for something called Valerian Root. Get a standardized form of it (it will list an active chemical on the label, instead of simply saying something like "Valerian Root - 500mg"). One capsule in the evening typically is very relaxing, although results may vary. 2 things to note - first, it's typically a big pill. Second, I've heard it described (not a lie) as smelling like "a filthy goat's ass". I personally would agree with that.

One final thing, orathaic - if you've had 6 years of problems, you may consider seeing a doctor. I am a bit of a hypocrite though, since I myself have had seasonal sleeping problems for about 12 or 13 years, and just treat the symptoms... and never been to a doctor about it.

Hope you find something that helps!

i had really bad sleepy problems for a long time too. talking to a doctor is a good idea, if you can.

what my doctor suggested was first getting environment sorted, like someone else said. not doing anything but sleeping (and sex, ha) in bed (ie no watching tv or laying around reading), make sure it's the right bed, temperature, etc. then not eating or drinking anything to close to bed time - even a beer to make you sleepy can cause sleeping problems later in the night as your body metabolizes it. last, you have to sort out what is causing the problems. in my case it was massive anxiety and stress b/c of my job, and of course once i left that job my sleeping problems stopped. but b/c of the sleeping problems, my doctor prescribed me an anti-anxiety drug (brand xanax here in the states) to take before bed which usually did the trick.

i tried melatonin, but it didn't work. tea didn't work. valerian root didn't work for me, though other people swear by it. recently i was having trouble sleeping again (i started a new medication, and i think it was a temporary side effect) and i started taking these homeopathic losenges called "moon drops" - despite their silly name, a friend swore by them, and they worked really well. they include valerian and other herbs - not sure if they would be available where you are, but just goes to show that at different times different treatments work, depending on what exactly is the cause of the sleeping trouble.

lastly, my heart goes out to you, b/c sleeping problems are the worst. =(

I give my son melatonin nightly as suggested by a DR. He takes 2mg. The thing to remember is it isn't a sleeping pill. We find that it isn't effective unless we give it to him a good 45-90 minutes before we put him down to bed.

i tried it, it doesnt work. i think i have slight insomnia though. i dont sleep well at night. havent for a long time.

I take it fairly regularly when I want to make sure I get a good nights sleep, and I'm worried that I won't for whatever reason. Works pretty well for me. I tend to start getting tired about 20 minutes after taking it and I tend to fall asleep fairly quickly. It doesn't completely knock me out, so if I need to get up and do something or whatever it doesn't leave me unable to function. I also tend to feel more rested the next day than I do on more "normal" sleeping pills which tend to leave me feeling slightly exhausted and just off the next day for a while. (Not to mention leaving me dizzy and a bit out of it if I have to get up in the middle of the night for some reason. One time I almost seriously hurt myself when I was in college and slept on a loft...).

Only side effect I've noticed is really vivid dreams. But I think that's pretty fun in general.
I'm also sometimes a bit groggy in the morning after taking it, but it usually wears off pretty quickly (especially if you make sure you get lots of exposure to light, especially sunlight), and that's mostly if i get less than 8 hours of sleep after taking it. (I try not to take it if I'm going to be really late and know I have to get up less than 8 hours later).

Should add that I take a 3mg dose at least 20 minutes before bed, though optimally I try to take it an hour or so before going to bed. I used to take 5mg's but after experimenting with cutting the tablets in half found I didn't need that much most of the time. It's not a cure-all, but for me it can help me get a good nights sleep when I know I need to and might have trouble doing so (i try not to take it every night, just so I don't build up any dependency, and sometimes go for weeks without taking any with no problems).

The dreams really are pretty vivid, but I've found often pretty fun.

I just wanted to say that I found this thread fascinating. I have never had sleep problems myself (knock on wood), and I've never really known what Melatonin even was. It's amazing that so many people here have (or had) sleep problems ...

On a lighter note, maybe if you guys didn't stab each other in your games so much, you'd be able to sleep at night. :-)

Isn't melatonin for darkening your skin for protection from the sun? Never heard of it related to sleep before
I take temazepam myself, though it builds a tolerance incredibly fast

i believe you are thinking of melanin, kestas.

i think they are related. whether melatonin works depends whether you are in the dark aswell. While the amount of melanin in your skin affect how dark your skin is (or if you're from northern europe how light your skin is and how easily your skin is able to create vitamin D in low light levels.)

Fascinating thread. When I read Macrado's comments about Tryptophan, all I could think about was turkey. And Thanksgiving. Yumm.

orathaic, you've got it slightly wrong.
Melatonin does not need darkness to work on your body, but your body's pineal gland is triggered into producing melatonin in the dark.

The dangers of taking it regularly, even in small dosages, is that your body will begin to create less of its own melatonin and make it impossible for you to sleep without the drug or some other unnatural method. Use it to right a wrong sleep schedule, not to regulate one.

hmm, Geofram, now i'm confused, all i had read indicated that without darkness (or blue filtering lenses~ 484nm light to be precise) you wouldn't be able to fall asleep.

but maybe that just means the darkness encourages your pineal gland triggers melatonin production, and the top up from taknig some means you are tipped over the edge (to sleepiness)... or i'm imagining an understanding of the human body which i do not posses.

The light keeps your body from producing melatonin, and without melatonin, the only way to fall asleep naturally is through exhaustion or eventual sleep deprivation.

But if you take artificial melatonin, your body will tell you to go to sleep regardless of the lighting, though it is still not a good idea.

I don't know about the powder or pills, but my wife has to get up early for work sometimes (nurse) and she uses a spray that she got at Whole Foods. A couple under the tounge and she's out in half an hour, then wakes up refreshed. this works for her and her teenager. Myself, I had the strange dreams and did not want to use again.

@Geogram: you said "But if you take artificial melatonin, your body will tell you to go to sleep regardless of the lighting, though it is still not a good idea."

but everything else i've heard says lights off
you saying "40 minutes before being in bed (light's off!)."
what my aunt-cousin told me
and wikipedia: "..." ok i can't find the quote i was looking for.

I am able to fall asleep duing the day, through exhaustion, infact i'd be more or less happy to continue living on a 30-35 hour day, with 8-12 hour sleeping periods, if i thought it wasn't affecting the rest of my life (and job)

so lights off encourages natural melatonin production... i wonder if i can get by without drug enhanced melatonin levels.