What was that about laundering dirty money?

Archonix: I don't know if in English it's used, but we say "to wash money" when you use your declaration of revenue to "legalize" the existence of money you get by illegal business.
Illegal weapons, drugs, contraband of wildlife, oil, diamonds, etc, are very extended activities. But you need some legal business to declare the money you earn that way.
Church is a political institution with a clear objective: keep things easy for some powerful economic groups. Charity activities are ideal to wash money, so you will see a lot of powerful enterprises making donations. And Rome supports a lot of actions in the world to prevent changes in societies who try to modify the economic liberal rules.
I know a lot of examples in my country, but you can read about the illegal Masonic lodge Propaganda Due and Banco Ambrosiano, linked with Pope Juan Pablo I and his sudden death.
Church told us that we are all equal, but even during XX century there was slavery in countries with Catholicism as official creed, whit Church approbation. Church told us that they defend life, but was supporting a lot of military coups d’état. Church told us that they defend the poor, but his actions to eliminate poorness are showing no results during the last 20 centuries.
Church’s hypocrisy is big. If you think that his actions are not important, giving just importance to God existence and not to all the Church’s aberrations, you are missing the point. And you are doing exactly what Church wants: believing with blind faith his cute words and disregarding his creepy actions.

What about all the great things religion has produced? Art, architecture, and music. What music! Not to mention in the most effective and oldest charities ever.

I wonder...If i told one person something would the last person in the group repeat the exact same thing I had told the first person?

Its definitely debatable exactly to what point religion is responsible. Obviously there are examples of Art, Architecture and Music that predate religion - at least as we know it today, they are an integral part of human society. Whether the evolution would have occured as fast, as effectively or in the unique way it did is unknown and can't be known, I think many of the greatest master pieces in art and music were done for personal pride and fulfilment, merely in the name of religion because it was more acceptable.

Through the developments in the Rennaissance to the Age of Enlightenment people thought very differently. During the Rennaissance, Non-Lutheran/Other Protestant Europe was under almost complete control of the Pope. Primarily consisting of all the states within Italy, Spain and Portugal. Most of the countries north had incredibly large Protestant followings. France, for example would be torn apart by civil unrest during the 1600s and the Netherlands would revolt from Spanish rule.

I believe that because of the slow changes or at least acquired freedoms in thought of the people in the north, the rennaisance happened in the south under the Catholic Church.

I personally would still say that art, literature and music developed more fully in the Age of Enlightenment. At the same time as atheism and agnosticism. Along side Byron, Shelley, Voltaire, Marx and truly countless others...

I can't discuss the charities - I don't know which in particular you're talking about. Charity itself in the form of altruism I don't believe revolves around religion. It, in the sense of religion at least, comes from a karmic way of thinking which is simply behind the times. Altruism though, is a common desire held by all people - Dawkins explains it in Darwinian terms and I agree. If someone asks I'll relay that here as well. I ulitmately believe that there is no moral imperative to participate in charities, but also that if you do you are morally 'superior', in that respect at least, to someone who doesn't - regardless of why you choose to do it.

Thanks Warrior, I was interested in those specific examples. Laundering money is used in English and in that sense.

Thucydides, you've said that you wanted to pull out multiple times now. I'm perfectly willing to respect your wish to be excluded from this conversation which simply was obviously heading in this direction - If that is what you want. What do you want?

thucy, are you kidding me?

He's right you know.

Wow. I wish I'd gotten in on this earlier (I love discussions about religion, especially when people aren't bashing and are really asking questions of each other). Also, I'm a Latter-day Saint (Mormon) and served a mission for two years in Chile, so I've got loads to talk about. Sadly, I doubt I will check back on this forum though very often because of time constraints, but kudos to all those who have posted their opinion and kept an open mind.

...May we all meet in Tyrolia!

el perro
you mean thucy?

talus
hey can you enlighten em a bit on the story of... joseph smith? is that his name?
I've heard the story told, but only in jest, so I was curious as to what mormons actually believe

I have definitely been torn apart inside debating with myself how much Christianity (or Catholicism, to be precise) is to credit for all the fantastic art that was created in baroque, gothic, and Renaissance Europe. Sure, all the artists credit God and Jesus right and left and sing holy praises up to them at every opportunity. But I find that if one credits Christianity with this art then one must also blame Christianity for all the sin that was accomplished under its name.

I'd rather take a different approach: Although the white men of Europe credited Christianity for their great advances, I think the truer source of their superior inspiration is culturally and nationally based. That is, the nationalism of the 19th century hits the nail more squarely on the head in accurately attributing these great works. The broad brush stroke of "Christianity" doesn't explain these accomplishments nearly as well as the national peculiarities of the peoples of Europe. German art and song look and sound different from English or French or Italian art or song because of the labels I have just used: the nation.

Talus Proteus will be able to clarify/correct this later. But if he doesn't have a chance to, this is from wikipedia if anybody wants it now: "These churches (LDS Movement) regard the text not only as scripture but as a historical record of God's dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas. They believe that Joseph Smith, Jr. translated it from an otherwise unknown language called Reformed Egyptian written on golden plates obtained from the Angel Moroni."

I personally have the utmost respect for the Mormon Church. A number of my friends are part of it. I don't neccesarily believe everything stated but unlike my experiences with people's of many other belief systems the majority of Mormons think and speak critically and with an open mind.

Beyond that the majority of Mormons I know treat others with respect. I have met a few exceptions but compared to that of the countless other belief systems its shockingly fewer. I don't know exactly why but it may have something to do with the two years spent overseas by the majority of them, allowing them to experience other cultures and be more understanding towards them. It may be within the Church and the doctrine though, I really don't know.

Oh, the text mentioned in the quote above is the Book of Mormon. That was pretty sloppy of me.