We have a really nice page explaining how points work and the different scoring systems. It's just impossible to find. Probably doesn't help in the long run to use terminology that isn't recognized by the whole hobby.

Agreed, they make mathematical sense when you read the explanation page. But they don't serve the purpose of a good name, being instantly clear as to what it means.

I agree with the OP. The names don't really suggest, to a casual reader / player, what they mean.

PPSC... That was easy to understand, user friendly

I have to admit I find the new names lack any kind of the intuitive feel that Winner Takes All and (to a lesser extent) Points Per Supply Centre had.

More than that I find the entire concept of Sum of Squares to be utterly baffling from the perspective of web based diplomacy. It seems to me to be a compromise that solves some of the difficulties encountered in face to face tournaments (essentially trying to determine a winner when time is against you), but here you get all of the negatives without needing the benefits.

PPSC, for all of its drawbacks, served a purpose and served those who liked it rather well.

Abge, could you elaborate on what you mean by "isn't recongnised by the whole hobby"? A major motivator was to bring the site scoring in line with what happens in offline diplomacy.

I agree that we could improve the name of draw size scoring. I wanted to minimise the number of changes, but I remember someone suggesting a much better name a while back.

I also think the way we communicate how the game works in general to new players could be better.

PPSC is not coming back. Let's not go over that again.

I would argue that new players generally don't care about the scoring system when joining games. I also think I linked the explanation from the game creation page, so it's not "impossible to find".

The game page should probably link to the scoring system explanation too.

Hey how about a scoring system like supply center point score? SCPS. something like the ASPCA but different.

@ A_Tin_Pot_Dictator:

Why is PPSC not coming back?

What would need to happen for this to be re-considered?

Because PPSC sucked.

The stats we posted recently showed PPSC games had been entirely replaced by SoS and Unranked games, Jamie.

Why does the scoring explanation way "Draw Size Scoring is previosly known as Winner Take All"? That is a false statement by my read.

Draw Size Scoring means you equally split the pot among remaining players. "Winner Take All" would imply...you know...the winner takes all (no split). OK, I get it, in a draw there was no winner and the pot was split, yadda yadda...but why even try to make some equivalency statement to a previous system anyway? Who cares what the old non-existent system was?

Should remove this WTA reference.

@Krellin, DSS is WTA, they are the same system. So it is a reference to the previous name of the current default system.

What was wrong with WTA

@ Bo_Sox: You suck. Should you be removed from the site?

@ Hellenic Riot: " PPSC games had been entirely replaced by SoS and Unranked games..."

Your point being?

Of course nobody was playing PPSC - it wasn't available as an option.

if we dont bring back PPSC, Al Swearengen will never come back to the site

Al remained here for ages after PPSC was removed, Brain.

I thought his big thing was PPSC and he was gonna leave

Part of the problem is that there's not a word or phrase that captures everything about either scoring system. Winner-take-all/equal draws and Winner-take-all/squared supply center scoring are the best I can come up with, but neither one makes a ton of sense.

Mostly unrelated question: Does an unranked game influence your statistics on the site? I know it doesn't influence points, but if I won an unranked game, will that win be counted on my profile?

PPSC, WTA, SOS, blah blah blah. Seriously, who gives a rats ass. All the variations are simply about the NON-GAME aspect of "collecting points". If you are playing to collect points, then go play silly games on your phone. It makes no difference the point system if people are simply motivated to collect points, because there are ways to play cretain game types that allow players to gather more point - such as playing games with a higher probbilty of dropping players, etc that skew outcomes. For that matter, someone can have a losing record in low-point games and then score a big kill on some huge point game and *bam*....

i.e. the points mean nothing. Frankly, they should be *totally eliminated* form the site.

You should play every game to win, period. Screw points.

wow, thats actually legit. ive never cared about points hoarding on this site. I guess thats a way people know you are good?

Winner Takes All shouldn't need to be stated. Diplomacy is naturally WTA. It's only because the abomination that was PPSC was on the site for so long that people get confused at all.

I realise that both DDS and SoS are winter takes all, in that the difference is only when you draw.

So the problem with the name WTA is there are now two types of WTA on the site.

"I guess thats a way people know you are good?" NOT AT ALL. Lousy players can accumulate points. Point in no way are a sure indication of a "good player".

1. People can choose game types, etc that maximize point collection
2. Length of time on site can impact total points collected.
3. I lousy player with a luck win in a hug game - say a world game - can score a big pot, when in most cases he pretty much sucks
4. Chaeters
5. blah blah blah

Points have no meaning.

To that point, it can be argued that the win/loss/draw record doesn't indicate who is a good player or not. It is more indicative, of course, but a player that joins, takes a whole bunch of loses before figuring out the game, and then starts on to winning ways with his newfound knowledge may show a loss record that is high, when in fact he has become a good player. To that extent, a win/loss/draw trend would be a better indicator - but I don't expect that to ever happen.

again - point serve no value, and should be eliminated. (But...but...it's let's you keep players out of a game!! that's value-added. Yeah, so you password-protected invite games.

Sum of squares is the name widely used by the community outside the site. I'm reluctant to deviate from it.

I agree that the names might be confusing for a new user, but I'm not really sure that new users care about the way games are scored. It's also clearly described on the game setup page,

In the first draft of SoS, we had a new name for it that was designed to be clearer, but elected to go with SoS because it's so widely used elsewhere.

Unranked games do currently count for your site statistics. The intention was (is?) to split those out (and to have better reporting generally), but last time I spent a lot of time working on the site scoring, I copped weeks of abuse for my trouble. I see jamiet remembers that time well.

Someone suggested a better name than draw size scoring (something like "draw shared equally"). I don't remember who this was (sorry!) but I think it's a good change. Changing the names can be confusing- do people think it's important enough to do on its own? Remember that not everyone uses the forum, nor do all our players regularly check the site. I figured we'd change the name next time we did a big scoring change, (like integrated ratings) since each scoring change is accompanied by a lot of discussion like this. Maybe it's better to do a name change separately after all.

DDos scoring is a pretty solid system too

"Sum of squares" is widely used outside this site. Exactly. We are not a F2F site. So why try to be. If you want to be that, I think some of the people who play mostly f2f should try to use this platform in some of their clubs. I've been trying to get Jimthegrey to use in a Weasels game. You can still have a board out and move pieces around for those who want that. It's also a great way to show off the site to those who only have played f2f

@A_Tin_Can IF you decide to make further alterations to the names.

You can call it DDS/DSE and have that link to the explanation page.

Rather than removing the old name, new players will benefit from the new name, and old players will not be confused because the old name is still there...

Jamiet: in case you're not trolling (I've discussed PPSC at length elsewhere):

* SoS was introduced to the site in part to provide similar motivations to PPSC without the incentive to throw games.
* The data suggests that PPSC is entirely replaced by SoS and unranked games, in terms of number of games and number of unique players.
* PPSC had been waning in popularity for *months* before we removed it. We just sped up the removal.
* The data also suggests that having too many big game type options splits the community- which is why we removed it rather than waited for it to die the natural death that appeared to be coming.

Let's not derail this thread. The analysis is in the thread titled "webdiplomacy is doing ok", although it's not the focus- because as I said, PPSC has been discussed at length elsewhere.

I am not trolling and I do not agree with your analysis. PPSC has been replaced by other modes only because you have forced that to be the case.

I'm with my Main Man Jamie! Right on, Brother! Preach it!!

Can I get an AMEN!?

From all the posts I read under this forum topic, here are the concerns/issues I am hearing from both sides;

Side 1) Players with point totals between Zero and 200 points (for an example) would be more disapproaving of the newer point scoring methods such as draw size scoring and sum of squares scoring, because games now have a "tendency to lead to draws" in most cases. PPSC (points per supply center) was nice because it encouraged winning and rewarded people for playing the game and surviving more vs draw voting.

It is more difficult than before to move into the top 200 players in the leaderboards because players who are high ranked on the leaderboards will want to draw the protect their point rankings.

I want to avoid saying anything too out of line because I do not want to get banned from the website for what I say in this post. My comments are summarizing concerns of both sides only.

Side 2) let's say players 200 points and over (such as myself) are the other side. I like to draw for the points and avoid falling in Rank. I like draw size scoring and sum of squares scoring because it prevents me from that, however I can still be defeated from a game.

I would like to make two suggestions to help accommodate both "groups of players".

1) have two ranking systems: have the point system the same to show where you stand worldwide in point accumulation . Then have a second ranking system based on wins which shows a different rank score for players world wide. If you have the most wins then you re #1 on the site.

2) make a sum of squares point scoring game mode that does not have any affiliation to "winner take all" game modes. It doesn't have to go back to PPSC but it will prevent "draw vote games"

To provide an incentive to the first option, what if the top 700 ranked players in point accumulation rank get special online invites to a once a year tournament?

What if the same thing applied but for the top 700 players with the most wins? I think that this would be a really fun way to accommodate both sides and their concerns who are for and against the game modes and their ways of point scoring.

The winner of either yearly tournament gets a title accomplishment (under a new accomplishment category) in their profile information saying "Winner of Point Rankings Tournament Year 2017.. Winner of Player Victories Tournament Year 2017.

That would be awesome!