Unfair? How so?

Once you've died in a game, regardless of the tactics that brought you to that point, it's over. It doesn't matter how the game officially ends once you've been defeated.

@Stripy: The meta-game is part of the game, get used to it. In a WTA game, it would be foolish to carebear to a 17-17. However, PPSC provides a different set of incentives: cementing my reputation as a 'good ally' is more important to me than the marginal point gain offered by an 11th hour stab to bring me to 18 or 19 instead of 17.

@bh the point that gets me though is to get your 'good ally' reputation you are earning yourself a 'bad enemy' reputation.

@Onar unfair because looking through some games I've seen people with a large chunk of the game systematically destroyed over years by a 2 person alliance where one person could've already won the game but is supporting his ally through their enemies territory. That seems to me unfair on the guy who devoted all his time to the game and earned a second place position by the way he played. Perhaps my perspective is misplaced though and I'm the only one who feels guilty taking out someone and giving them an eliminated just to help your ally get an extra few points.

Stripy, I feel the same way. In the end, it's your call whether or not to work with that ally for the 17-17 draw or work with the other guy to push for a three way draw. You're in a powerful position so you can pick. Let me tell you it's far worse when you're the third guy.

17-17 draws are fine if thats the way the game is played. Perhaps they are playing for 17-17 because both members of the alliance are in aposition to stop the other winning. I'm not sure how it affects the others. Perhaps your opponent in the second comment believed that he had a position to stop you winning. If so it is up to you in the game to prove him wrong. A 17-17 draw is the epitome of a perfectly played alliance.

if two powers have 17 supply centers then either theres nobody else left playing so it doesnt matter to the other players or else they would be so weak that it still wouldnt matter to other players

@Chris Nice to see someone feels the same way as me :) I know it's just a matter of time until I'm the third guy and I agree it sounds like it will suck.

@OMG I agree sometimes they are fine. I have had one already and if someone goes CD and their position gets taken over I have no problem eliminating the new guy or if you both are racing and hit 17 at the same time that's all fair, but I just feel too mean killing the guy who I've been talking to all game who has gone down fighting the good fight

Don't kill him then. From the 17-17 draw 1 centre is enough for victory.

OMG, I think Stripy means killing the third wheel. A 17-17 can only be achieved with two nations.

As the player who would have preferred a 17/17 draw in stripy's game i'd like to comment as follows. I generally set out to win games, if I can't, I will draw them 17/17. If i can't do that I will draw them with a number of players and if I can't do that I try and survive with as many SCs and points as I can. I managed to get myself into a position with stripy where he could stab me for a win and I couldn't do too much about it except talk to him about a 50/50 which he glanced over (quite rightly) I was kind of expecting a stab from there on, but knew i couldn't do too much if that is what he had planned.

I rarely think too much about trying to save a player (particularly a non-ally) just so they can have a survive on their record. In the subject game two players gained 'survives' without having a SC between them.

For the record I don't think stripy's stab will affect the way I play with him in future, (even if I remember it) it is a big part of the game and I think those who try to build reputations as people who never stab assume everyone else is paying far more attention to them than they actually are.

BTW I only just read Stripy's final comments to me 'in game' I think it is a shame that the game ends and we have to trawl through our finished games to see final positions and chat.

I enjoyed that particular game even though i got myself into a poor position.

There's nothing wrong with a 17-17 draw. But equally there's nothing wrong with breaking one to win.

Personally I really don't mind - let the games flow, let them run.
Free your minds! :D

stripy im 100% with you - 17/17 draws are not 'supposed' to be part of diplomay... but then again, some 90% of games on here are not 'real' diplomacy games... they are PPSC. so if you choose to play in PPSC games, then you should know that this community does not frown on meta-gaming like that, and in fact the ppsc variant encourages it.

it is actually the 'best' way to play ppsc


i think the only solution is to play wta-only

in fact - i just had an idea -... lets create a "league of real dip players"

hmmmmm....

I felt really guilty about that stab Maniac. Normally I would've probably suggested we just race to see who can get to 18 first that way giving the minor powers a chance but Russia and Germany had been such battlers all game I didn't have the heart to attack them. I'd make a pretty crappy fascist military dictator.

It was a fun game though, most players were talkative and those that weren't died horribly horribly as they deserved :)

It's really interesting to see the different perspectives people have though, I think mine is in the minority.