@Hannibal76, you spin a fascinating tale. It's completely wrong, but fascinating nevertheless. At no point in the site's history has the number of active players who used the forum ever risen above 3%. 97%+ of the site users have found the forum useless to them. So the choices are either leave it useless to the stunning majority or members or attempt to change it for the better. Which is what Kestas has been working on lately. The new forum structure will allow threaded conversations so people like you who long for the "glory days" can be happy, while we can hopefully provide more useful content for the 97% who disagreed with you.

Cheers.

*All my own opinions (except for the stats which are facts pulled from the database) and not representative of the mod team or owners opinions.

They're representative of my opinion, personally. Couldn't have said it better, jmo. Thanks.

The new forum structure will allow us to make some changes but we haven't gotten to the point in that project where we can definitively say what those will be yet.

Lack of anarchy isn't the same as a police state, Hannibal.

@New Forum structure.

I will again say what i've said before, I support all decisions made to improve the site. It is Kesta's site, and (now with added Zultar) the owners have every right to make whatever.

That said, i love the simplicity of the current forums, having everyone in one place really gives a sense a focus for the webdip community. And i fear losing this.

In three years people like hannibal will be ranting about the golden days of this wonderful system we currently enjoy.

That said, i don't have to like it...but hopefully usage will increase.

Alright so I didn't look at any facts before I started talking :)
I just remembered that around a year ago (or a few months ago not entirely sure) there was a huge thread talking about how the number of people playing on the site were becoming less and less and I just decided to make a connection that apparently isn't there sorry bout that :)

@orathaic, yeah I agree with you where I like having 1 forum. It's just simple and entertaining. The problem is it's quite literally killing site performance. The forum (used by 3%) is the cause for a sizable amount of the database queries being run. The new redesigned version has a WAY better table structure that is intelligently formatted to keep page loads low and to reduce the impact nicely. It'll also remove the need to delete years worth of forum threads just to keep the site functioning.

So while I do to a degree wish it could remain in the single format, it's unfortunately just too much of an impediment to future site development to leave as is.

Wait, can we bring back the old deleted threads if you make a new forum?

@Jmo, i don't think the forum is killing the site.

And we don't have any evidence.

I believe that the lack of a mobile app and interface and the move away from web based browsing to phone based systems is what is killing the site. It is a trend entirely unrelated to anything we have done here.

And i'd love to see a campaign to fund-raise the production of an app.

He doesn't mean killing the site's popularity. He means that it is detrimental to the site's literal ability to function.

Well, again, we don't have data on that.

We don't have any A/B testing, where we can sign up 1,000 new players to different interfaces and see if one forum or another solution retains more players.

So at the moment it is very hard to see what the forum does.

Unless we can contrast with similar figures for playdiplomacy over the same time period.

Ora, read better.

Ora, he means that it makes the site crash repeatedly when a certain number of threads have been created. There are also other detrimental effects on site performance prior to it getting to that point.

WRT usability, would it be possible to have radio buttons instead of pulldown menus? I like radio buttons (or anything similar) on phones much better. UI is everything.

If Jamie had simply stated he supports Antifa and all they stand for would he still have been warned?

If a webdip member posted a thread claiming to be a white supremecist I presume theyd be banned immediately without warning for example. Since that has no place here

If someone made a thread just saying "Antifa is in the right" would that count as encouraging violence

"Well, again, we don't have data on that."

I remember kestas at one point having to go back and removing several extremely old threads because they imposed an extreme burden on the site. That's why the earliest accessible threads only go back so far.

"several" = well over a thousand.

@orathaic, yes we do have proof, and yes we are 100% positive that it was the forum tables that were crashing the site. That is the entire reason Kestas had to archive off years worth of forum threads. When the forum tables reach a certain number of records there is a noticeable and provable impact to the site's performance. The more records in the old table structure the higher the page load times and at a certain threshold the site starts crashing for all users.

Any update on the test run forum that kestas is working on? I know there was a hiccup that didn't allow anyone to post in the initial test.

Jmo. Yes, the forum tables were crashing the site, and yes they reduce page load times, but i'm not sure that reduction was high enough to impact usability.

Have you looked at the attrition rates?

Do you have data for number of players signing up per week/month over the last few years? Can you see how many of those completed at least 1 game in their first month, or how many completed 2-5 games in their first 3 months?

Can you see how the percentage has changed over the last 8 years? (ie have the total conversions from creating an account to playing 2-5 games in 3 months gone up, down or stayed the same?).

Now my theory would be that initial signups are down, but percentage of signups staying on the site has stayed roughly the same.

Your theory would show that percentage staying went down as the forum size grew, and would have jumped back up when the old forum threads were archived. Have you got any data to back this up?

And in future we would hope that the new forum would serve to increase percentage staying...

If you look at the data, now and after, then we can see how well that plan works out.

@"WRT usability, would it be possible to have radio buttons instead of pulldown menus? I like radio buttons (or anything similar) on phones much better. UI is everything."

It would be possilbe to develop a mobile version of the site. As this is an opene source project, you can work on this your self (or try putting together a team to do it...)

@"Ora, he means that it makes the site crash repeatedly when a certain number of threads have been created. There are also other detrimental effects on site performance prior to it getting to that point."

He does indeed, and i hadn't noticed that point regarding slower load times, and reduced usability.

But given that this is simply fixed by archiving older forum threads (which can easily be automated) my inclination would still be to retain the current single page format of the forum. And instead of spending 10,000 Currency units on developing an integrated forum solution, to instead have spent that money on a mobile version for the iOS/android app stores.

@orathaic, I'm going to answer and explain one more time giving you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't intentionally putting words in my mouth and calling me either an idiot or a liar.

Playing the have I looked this stat up game:
Have I looked at attrition rates: Yes
signing up per week/month: Yes
completed a game: Yes
Completed 2-5 no (10 yes)
Used the forum ever: yes
Used the forum more then once: yes
Used the forum more then once a week/month/6months/1year: yes
New sign ups per country: yes
New sign ups per language: yes
New sign ups per browser type: yes
New sign ups per operating system: yes
New sign ups per device type: yes
Average hits a day: yes
Average session time per user: yes
Average pages checked per session: yes
Sites we gain acquisition from: yes (One youtube gamer posted a video early in the year which got us several thousand new members in a week span so we thanked him, rather nice of him!)
Top devices: yes
Every other stat offered by Google Analytics: yes.

*For every stat mentioned above I have looked them up year over year for several years history, some going back to the start of the site.

I have looked at, and shared with Zultar, just about every stat offered by google analytics as well as doing multiple database queries myself for the few interesting things they didn't have such as # of game messages sent by users in their first game to name one. It would have been grossly incompetent to spent a significant amount of money without knowing the site usage information and trends from it.

So for the last time, when I tell you that I do know and can prove this information, I'm not lying, I'm not making things up. I've spent the time, Kestas and Zultar spent the time, the information has been looked at and considered.

The new forum is a small portion of the site changes but it is the 1 that holds up all the other ones. Adding new features into a broken database schema would be a stupid waste of money. So the database schema is being fixed first. The forum tables being corrected into a new format allows development of other features without the worry the current forum layout presents.

When I say the forum is killing the site I do not mean or reference anything related to user counts. User counts don't matter in reference to that statement. There could be 1 user or 10,000,000,000,000. If the forum gets to large the site goes down. If the forum format stays the same then adding in any new features to the site that use processing power risks the forum needing to be truncated to such an absurd degree that there'd only be months or weeks of history available. The number of users doesn't matter at all in this problem. Only the number of posts on the forum. That's the problem. In the new forum format this is not a problem at all. The forum can scale without concern for the number of posts. So once that is settled it is safe to add new features. And there are multiple planned. Go listen to Zultar's interview with the Ambassador to hear some of them.

If this answers your questions/concerns, fantastic. If it does not, please see the following:

I'm sorry you don't understand, but given our past interactions, I suspect you don't actually care and are just looking to waste my time. This conversation is considered resolved.

Wow, sorry if i touched a nerve, that does sound fantastic. Thanks for the info.

I can only say i didn't get what you were saying at first (performance issues with the forum) and assumed you were talking about something else (the previous conversation about how the forum needed moderation because it was driving players away). Apologies for any upset.