I really think this alliance almost always favors the Russian. It would be great to try though -

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Not sure it's Russia it favours, personally.

I see a Peppermint just as often as Juggernaut - though Juggernaut is more common in lower quality games. It's a Wintergreen that seems uncommon these days.

if austria gets all of turkey, i guess it is an even split. anytime one power wraps around another on two or more sides, i find the stab becomes too tempting, and there is too much distrust between the two even if there never is a stab. but keeping things north south would help that.

I think it's a strong and sometimes overlooked alternative to the Juggernaut (R/T) and Lepanto (A/I). Turkey and Italy have to unite to defeat it, which they may be reluctant to do, and even if they do they might need outside help (England or Germany for issuance). But A/R won't likely annoy the West as much as R/T, so such help might be hard to come by.

I think Russia benefits most in the short-term, since after the fall of Turkey he can play Italy and Austria off one another. However, Austria may well benefit if Russia builds too many fleets and becomes very vulnerable to a land stab.

Love me some wintergreen

i've tried it a couple of times and never worked out -- from the sound of things i need to try again, but perhaps with more advanced and strategically minded partners...

As Italy:

you go to Russia

You say "Hi. You tell me who we're killing first, we get the other guy to help us, then we cut him out, then we go our separate ways"

it's just such an easy sell. of course, the problem is that the reason it's so good is that you two don't get in each other's way.

The reason you don't get in each other's way is the same reason you can't physically help each other much: you start separated, that's the only problem.

right -- but if you can't help each other out, and one of you fails (especially in mid-late game) the other one is in a poor position, usually with limited alliance options. happened to me more times then i can count.

Actually Valis I think that's a wintergreen, but I planned on working that one in sometime this week too.


So what is the major problem for getting this one started? Galicia? It seems far more of a problem than the issue over the Black Sea with a Jug. Russia commonly asks for a dmz in Galicia and both powers routinely break it. Better to ask for a bounce?

The problem is whenever I've been playing Austria and tried this alliance, once we've defeated Turkey and I move west to attack Italy the player with Russia backstabs and attacks my home sc's.

When I have Russia I like this alliance, and the we don't move to Galicia agreement, I also make a point of putting my fleet in Rumania.
I like to surprise Germany with an army to Silesia in spring 01 to counter Germany bouncing me in Sweden so I'm happy to make Galicia a dmz

The Austronaut.

@MM. I think using diplomatic skills to make the German see the value of letting Russia into Sweden is far better than antogonizing him with a move to Silesia and then withdrawing.

Russian fleet in Rumania in spring 1901, Austrian fleet Trieste winter 1901 and its on. See the games HR linked for good examples.

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The AR can easily take down the rest of the board if they want to - and do so very quickly if they can keep France under control. I do think Austria has the upper hand in this alliance though. My paranoia kept telling me that, at least.

I think you just stabbed too early in that game, Gold

I think that's a common theme with me haha. The whole game though, I knew Austria was a far better diplomat than I. I didn't want to give him a shot

I personally think that R/A is occasionally better then R/T. With Austria, Russia does have more power, the west will over look it for the time being until they realize how strong it is. In addition to all that Austria gets units closer to the west then Turkey, a huge plus after Turkey is taken. The closest counter alliance is Italy and Turkey, which they should both realize once R/A is gone then they will most likely fight each other making the effort to attack R/A almost halfhearted or ineffective with both trying to off the other.

@Clausewitz - I/T should never be given the chance to form. The game I cited was a good example - unintentionally though it may have been. I was genuinely trying to start off as a Jugg, but PW was so damn good at press that he kept convincing Turkey to attack me the whole time. Eventually PW had too large of an opening hand so I fell to the backup, which was the A/R

I love the disregard for the IT when it's far more powerful than an AR - if people commit to it from the start. Fantastic and massively underrated alliance.

Agree on the IT. It is so underrated, but it does take strong early commitment. So many different interesting varieties to it, too!

Does anyone have a link for I/T? I'd be very interested in that. I think my I/T needs improvement.

HR - I'm not too sure on that. A 100% committed I/T vs a 100% committed A/R from turn 1? How could the A/R not win that? Turkey would collapse before Italy can properly help. Not to mention R can get additional builds from the northern theater

To what extent does the fame of the Juggernaut make an I/T or even an A/R difficult. Do you find like I do that the expectation of a Juggernaut makes it difficult for Turkey to form an alliance with Italy?

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Apparently its possible to do it even in a Anonymous no press WTA.

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A beautiful IT

@Goldie - if Turkey supports Italy into Greece in 1901, along with opening to Armenia, it's extremely difficult to see how the AR beats the IT, without French aid against Italy.

A live gunboat I/T, where I played the T side of the alliance: http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=168897#gamePanel. As I recall, this alliance arose in response to a strong Austria, and was then sustained by the threat of an English solo. As Turkey, I kept just one Mediterranean fleet parked in the Aegean Sea, which kept me well enough defended, and also seemed to be adequate assurance to Italy that I wasn't going to attack him.

However, it bears mentioning that I had to scroll through five pages of my games to find even a single example of long-term I/T cooperation. I/T relations in the vast majority of my games consist of total hostility between both nations in the Balkans & Med. In an I/T war, my sense is that the nation which can hold Serbia prevails over 90% of the time.

Yes, well. I have to say that most of the examples of IT's in my game history have me as either Italy or Turkey, too. But that's a positive - not a negative. The fact it's so rare means that quite often, nobody knows how to defend from it, and you usually have the element of surprise on your side as well.

@ssorenn
I don't send an army from Warsaw to Silesia in the spring 01 move to then withdraw, I attack. But each game is different. Now I'm trying alliances with Austria and Germany and two units North opening for Russia. Basically I schlepp about the press like an old two buck harlot looking for prince charming.

@MajorMitchell--sounds like a good time for the Squid.