There is no American Catholic. There are some Easter Catholic Churches who are in full communion with the Catholic Church and acknowledge the supremacy of the Pope and other dogmatic issues. They aren't heretics or schismatics, they have a different, local tradition but are in line with the rest of the Church on matters of faith. Basically they're allowed variations on the Mass and sacraments.

Sorry, I will endeavor to capitalize Catholic from this point forward.

And the fact that the Byzantine Catholic, the Roman Catholic, and the American Catholic churches also have different practices and beliefs is just as significant.

I do question why Catholic needs to be capitalized. Lutheran comes from a man's name, Martin Luther.

What I find ironic is that Luther wasn't trying to create a new religion or break away from the Catholic faith when he wrote and tacke dup the Articles of Reformation. He was just trying to encourage discussion based on what God had revealed to him through his own trials, failings, and doubts in life. Revelations given him while in prayer and study trying to find meaning behind his questions.

Also, I was a bit harsh on the Catolic church in general earlier. While I think the pope is full of hot air and passing out orders for a world long gone because he doesn't understand the real world (this pope at least, John Paul was a much better man), I believe the majority of the people in the Catholic Church at the local level have good hearts and truly want to improve the world. My wife and I go to bingo most every Friday night because we'd rather blow the money having fun and knowing it is going to a good cause than see it lining someone else's pockets.

I even participate in any poker tournaments I hear about and can afford that are sponsored by the local Catholic Churches.

More irony... My wife is in one of the Catholic Chat rooms on Yahoo right now and they are talking about the Latin Mass versus having it in English.

Sure, LCMS is a splinter group. But my point was that ELCA is a *liberal* splinter group, at 7% of worldwide Lutheran membership the most liberal by far. Do you really deny that?

http://www.accus.us/

Check it out and be enlightened as to your own faith, Invictus.

Define liberal? We are liberal in that we welcome all into the church. Any who would seek the word of God and the eternal life through Christ Jesus are welcome in our midst. We are liberal in that we believe (as most Lutheran faiths do) in helping those who need it, without judgment or reservation.

When it comes down to it, the core principles of Lutheranism are common amongst all the Synods. We all follow Luther's Catechism. Luther's writings are to us as the word of the Pope is to Catholics around the world.

With regards to the statement that all Catholic faiths follow the Pope, I present the following from the American Catholic Church in the United States:

Bishop of Rome’s Declaration Year of the Priest June 19, 2009 to June 19, 2010

ACCUS Response



On March 16, 2009, the Bishop of Rome, Benedict XVI announced that the Church will celebrate a special year for priests beginning on June 19, 2009. In the announcement released by the Vatican it was announced that “During the course of the Year, Benedict XVI will proclaim St. Jean Marie Vianney as the patron saint of all the priests of the world.”



It is the position of the Roman Catholic Jurisdiction that not all priests of the world are in communion with that jurisdiction. In a statement released on June 17, 2009 the Bishop of Rome stated "As long as the Society (of St. Pius X) does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church. ... Until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers ... do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church".

Basically their statement indicates that any priests within the St. Pius X Jurisdiction are not included. If that is the case then how can the first statement be true in that ALL the priests of the world are included in the year of the Priest? Unfortunately the Roman Jurisdiction of all includes those in full communion with the Holy Roman Catholic Jurisdiction and not ALL the priests in the world.



There are other validly ordained Catholic priests in the world. They include and are not limited to those in the Independent Jurisdictions, the Orthodox, Episcopalian, Anglican, and others throughout the world who are not in communion with the Bishop of Rome. One can be lead to believe that since the Society of St. Pius X is not recognized then those not in communion with the Roman Jurisdiction also fall into that category, so it seems then that the Year of the Priest is only for all Roman Catholic Priests.



The American Catholic Church in the United States wishes our brothers in Christ well as they celebrate a year dedicated to them. We in the ACCUS believe that all of us who are baptized into the one priesthood of Christ should take note and be examples of love and charity of the true gift from God, not just a patron Saint, but Jesus Christ Himself who is the model we ALL should live by. Thus the Presiding Archbishop of the ACCUS has also declared a Year for Priests. (Click this link to see the proclamation).

God gives us examples and opportunities each and every day to walk in the footsteps of Christ and we have Him as our guide and master. Our Priests in the ACCUS try to live in the true spirit of Christ as stated in Matthew 25:35-40 “For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.” It is in that light We as Priests in the ACCUS serve ALL the people of God.



Peace and Blessings,

Msgr. William Johnson, VF+

Vicar of Clergy--ACCUS

The following points (taken from WELS website) are what I mean by ELCA being liberal. Please confirm or deny them.

1. Most pastors in the ELCA hold to the view that the Bible contains many errors.

2. The ELCA tolerates the teaching that Jesus did not say or do many of the things ascribed to him in the Gospels.

3. Most pastors in the ELCA seem to hold to the teaching that Genesis 1-3 is a myth.

4. The ELCA tolerates the teaching that Jesus' death as a payment for sin is merely one of several "theories" which could explain his death.

5. The ELCA tolerates the teaching that it is possible to be saved without faith in Christ.

6. The ELCA tolerates the teaching that extramarital sex and homosexuality may be all right if practiced in a loving relationship.

7. The ELCA teaches that it is not necessary or possible to agree on all doctrines of Scripture. Fellowship (including Communion) is practiced without regard to doctrinal differences.

8. The ELCA teaches that what the Bible has to say about the role of man and woman in the church has no authority today. Therefore women may serve as pastors.

Draugnar, the ACCUS is a very, very small group, and the Society of St. Pius is a traditionalist sect which is against the reforms of Vatican II. Both are marginal to say the least. Also, there is a difference between Catholic and catholic. Little catholic is just a claim to being the univseral church founded by Christ. Anglicans call themselves catholic and reformed, that doesn't mean that they're Catholic. "Catholic" is shorthand for Roman Catholic.

At any rate, this thread is supposed to be about Dr. The_Master_Warrior's beleifs. There's already a Catholic-Protestant thread so this discussion ought to move there.

1. False.
2. False
3. True (sort of). Genesis is a parable. Jesus used them often in his teaching and this was a parable to teach provided by God the Father to a seriously uneducated and unable to understand world.
4. False
5. False
6. False - accepting someone is not the same as saying their sin is alright. Love the sinner, hate the sin.
7. True. No one faith has all the answers. Not even the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope (sorry).
8. True. My pastor is a woman. The roles as prescribed in the Bible were for a time when those roles were necessary.

And I agree about the catholic vs. Catholic. The Apostle's Creed includes the line "I believe in the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the ressurection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen." as it's very last lines.

Great. Even if you are right about the ones you called false, then I'd say that the practice of open communion and the ordination of women and homosexuals make ELCA a very liberal splinter group.

The bottom line, Draugnar, is that your tried to present the ELCA position on homosexuality as THE one Lutheran position. It absolutely is not, and the ELCA position is that of a small minority of worldwide lutherans.

I'm done hijacking the thread.

Yeah, we really shouldn't have had thi sin this thread. It was just Diplofool's persistant homophobia triggered it.

I still say though, that marriage is a LEGAL union and the word is not owned by the church, so therefore same sex couple should be allowed to be legally married and enjoy all the priviledges, rights, and protections (and the reponsibilities) granted to (and required of) any married couple, which is what really started all of this off.

"Anyway I think nationalism is a disease that will destroy America, ironically enough. So you need to get rid of your ultranationalist ideas pronto before they bring us all down, man."

And liberalism isn't? Damn liberal friendless college students holed up in their dorm room......

"Fuck bigoted homophobic assholes"

I really hate the term "homophobic". Who is scared of gays? You'd have to be the biggest wimp in the world to be SCARED of gays. Yes, I'm terrified of the gay COMMUNITY politically, but that's different.

My church is a member of the ECLA, but we're in the process of joining a much more conservative offshoot. Thank God that our pastors have the sense to do it.

It's ELCA, you twat. And thank God your pastors (plural? really?) is leaving. This revalation might make me have to reconsider my chosen faith if you were in the same one and happy with it. Go join the LCMS.

If I remember correctly, and I'm almost sure I do; wasn't The_Master_Warrior (ironic) supposed to be banned?

@TMW: you said "And liberalism isn't? Damn liberal friendless college students holed up in their dorm room......"

I think most universities tend to encourage an open-ness to new ideas (as a matter of fact) and not indoctirnate people into liberal ideas. The fact that a group allows people express themselves, and doesn't persecute them is called 'liberal friendly' (at least i think that's what you meant) surely most universities are conservative friendly aswell, in so much as they allow conservatives to express their ideas, form communities, and debate their points of view.

unless you abandon the institutes of higher level education...

Also what do you fear from the gay community? politically they're not going to interfere with your life, or make anyone else gay (because it's not a choice, though it is a choice to act on your animal instincts and hump people, we don't choose what we find attractive...)

Mental Note: If you really want to set Draugnar off start talking about Christian denominations in general and the Catholic church in particular... This could be fun information to have in the future... ;)

Just kidding, I generally find religious anger to be boring and irritating, which is why I've not even bothered to read more than one or two posts in the Protestantism vs Catholicism thread.

I would try to go back to some of my earlier questions, and ask for clarification on some of the answers I got, but things have gotten so far off track and TMW/Diplomat has clearly gotten so desperate for attention by this point that I wouldn't anticipate anything even resembling a real explanation from him at this point. Perhaps I'll start another thread sometime soon to discuss some of the constitutional issues I was enjoying discussing earlier.

I fear them politically because there are quite a few of them and they all vote straight (I love puns!) demoncrat.

Actually, DrOct, it's why I avoided that thread in general. And it was less a religious thing and more a social injustice thing anyhow. Gays and Lesbians have as much right to seek happiness as a straight person and, if getting legally married makes them happy, so be it. Let them live. I just got sidetracked because of the hypocritical attitude of some Christians (whether they be Catholic or Protestant). I used to go to the Baptist church and heard "lov eth esinner hate the sin" preached all the time yet slip up and do something they considered a sin and you'd get shunned. I left because I love poker and cigars and a vodka martini every now and again and they consider any form of gambling, drinking, or smoking a sin.

Of course, every religion has it's hypocrits as well as hypocritical attitudes that are pervasive throughout the religion, but ELCA suits me best in that it is accepting of anyone who honestly seeks Christ.

Protestants are not heretics because we don't reject any fundamental teachings of the Church.

So far, no one has given me a rational argument against Constitutionalism to work with. Such an argument would be much appreciated!

"Protestants are not heretics because we don't reject any fundamental teachings of the Church."

Except the one about how Protestants are heretics.

But we should not have been identified has heretics in the first place. So, really, they're the heretics by calling us heretics.

"Protestants are not heretics because we don't reject any fundamental teachings of the Church."

You reject the authority of the Pope and other matters of Catholic dogma. That makes you heretics from the perspective of Catholics. Pretty simple.

"So far, no one has given me a rational argument against Constitutionalism to work with."

Constitutionalism means that you think there ought to be a constitution. I don't think too many people are against the idea that a country ought to have a constitution.

I think you need to do a better job of what defining your terms and beliefs before anyone can "give you a rational argument against" whatever it is that you believe.

So far you've just made vague statements and then disappeared for long periods of time only to pop in to take pot shots at gay people for some reason.

lol

Here's my rational argument against Constitutionalism:

What makes you think the Constitution is worth following? It's 200 years old. I say trash it and write a new one.