Fate can coexist...when you say you believe in fate it does not cancel out free will.

Yes, Yes, "You are the sum of your choices." But aren't most of those choices cause by Free Will?

I believe that fate and Free Will can co-exist. Just not the fate that you are thinking of.

See but those "previous actions" weren't of free will either!! Everything is determined. You cant get around it.

How is everything determined? God had a choice to create the universe like it is or different. THE VERY FIRST CHOICE WAS OF FREE WILL!

@My_name_is_Mud, lol
@Darth, I guess what I am arguing is that we are very complex and sophisticated Robots, but ultimately we are pre-programmed. We have a mechanism, though, that is able alter that programing somewhat on the fly, so to speak, but that mechanism is also determined.

Read above post.

AHhh i see....you assume i believe in god. I dont...but i do know of people that do and they know free will doesnt exist either...
Anyways if god does exist, him having free will is irrelevant to us. You are saying then that we are the same as god.

@Spyman, If we are just complex robots, then we are so complex that it doesn't matter anymore and we have thoughts of our own and within that limited alteration the ability to have some control of our lives.

Ah, an Athiest. This makes sense now. I'm saying that God gave us one of the things he values, Free Will. Also, there's something wrong with your determined view, which I am now calling Fate. If we are controlled by fate then I can do nothing and just wait for everything to happen, because it is pre-determined. I can go through life without a care and trust that this pre-determination will get me where I need to go.

@Darth, but you won't because you are pre-programmed to act not to just wait.

Well if you do nothing you will fail, and that is what was supposed to happen, and you did that because either you felt you could just chill and all the success you would have had if you did things would come or other influences that led you there. Im also more of a tea cup agnostic I cant be ABSOLUTELY sure that god doesn't exist.

Ok, ok. I'm willing to accept that everything is predetermined. But consider this, If you are destined to die at a young age then with your theory there is nothing you can do about that. No matter what you do you will die at that young age. You are forced to go through life without being able to effect the end of it. It doesn't matter if you do everything right, your just going to die at that young age. If that was you and you knew that, it wouldn't make you feel to good now would it.

Lol life isn't about feelings...if you were going to die and you knew it well yes it would suck but hey thats how things are.

The thing is, even if life is predetermined, be nice to people and let people believe that they have some effect on it. It makes me feel bad that I can't change my destiny and have some effect on it to make sure I get a so called Happy Ending. You should feel bad about not being able to make sure your happy in the end as well.

MUD is life isn't about feelings then what is it about? Tell me that and I'll believe every word you say.

*if* not is

Ha are you asking me the meaning of life? but why would it be about something that is brought on by chemicals in the brain.

If it's not feelings that what is it. Yes, I am asking you the meaning of life.

Well yes it is not a pretty thought...but we cant stick our heads in the sand and pretend that something isn't happening. I don't really care what other people believe until they tell me im wrong. Then i must ruin their lives with this thought process :)

Ok, so Why should I care about life. Again, What is the meaning of life?

I know that this will change nothing about whether your wrong or not, but if not feelings what?

It could be lots of things and it could be nothing at all. To that i do not have an answer. But it would seem pointless to be about feelings.

Why, why not feelings? Isn't this entire argument about feelings. It's about whether or not you think you can make yourself happy in the end or if you have no idea what's going to happen because you have no influence over it.

This argument is about belief (a feeling), and our confusion as human beings about life. (another feeling).

Ha why should you or why should i, i read somewhere that to live is better of than to be dead (i guess this is if you're atheist, the whole partying it up in Heaven might be fun lol). Philosophers have thought long and hard about this. But life is all we have at the present moment so we should try to make the best of it.

So I say, your WRONG about life not being about feelings, and you are WRONG and until you say what it is about.

We can't make the best of it because it is predetermined.

Calm down with the" wrong" stuff, for all you know is you are wrong too.

Those things you say are feelings, well i wouldn't call them feelings thats just another definition argument.

And even though it's predetermined you can't live as though it is. You will be depressed all the time.

Anyways this argument is going places i would rather just not discuss I've got graduation tomorrow, big speech, so i need my sleep. Nice arguing with you and im glad i could bring you to see the predetermined side of things.