"I'd rather play against Babak and lose than play against draugnar and win, because that would be an interesting and fun game, and not some sort of arena to settle arguements."

The problem is that _this_ thread was promted by Babak starting a thread on the forum specifically for the purpose of insulting Draugnar and whining about Draugnar's style of play. I for one consider Babak's decision to post such a thread trollish in the extreme.

I would rather play with Draugnar than Babak.

Quote: " Akroma, that was meant as a pun on the previous post which declared a rule that we should be proper gentlemen, in which a reference was made to the term 'nerd', which is inappropriate on a site which is most frequented by young and above average intelligence males.
I certainly would not persecute a female player just because. Dip requires a combination of intelligence and experience to play well, and the ladies should bear in mind that 'nerds' are often sensitive individuals who can turn out to be real ladies men in later life, just like I have (!!)."

1. I am actually male.
2. I used the term 'nerd' for its convenience. I could also have written 'young and above average intelligent males active on the internet'. I too fall into that category. I certainly didn't mean to point to some stereotypical form of 'nerd' like in movies as 'Revenge of the Nerds' or something.
3. What did I mean then? Well, on the forum we've had some topics about women, titled like 'how many women are there on this site?', in which some even *revealed* themselves, which in turn would lead to outbursts of masculinity within the not-so-old male population. So, to not chase female players away it's better to be/remain 'asexual'.
4. This was supposed to be funny.
5. I can only wonder about the effects of my post in this thread. Interesting tho.

@ Cent:

A. What distinguishes us from animals then? Is something's worth really defined by their genus species, and not their accomplishments?

B. I assure you my accomplishments are not limited to placing in the top one percent intelligence wise. I just didn't see the need to go into them here...

C. Most successful people realize that in order to have success you must make the masses like you. This is why they are all modest. I have no interest in being a pawn of society, and I will refuse to accept a creed that tells me that success is failure .

D. I think the fundamental difference between you and I is that you approach psychology from a mainly neurobiological standpoint, where as I approach it from a mainly cognitive standpoint. We can argue about that if you want, and I'm sure you have the science to back up your viewpoint, but I don't ultimately care. I consider having a cognitive outlook healthier because of the placebo effect. If I believe I will be successful, I will be more successful than if I think I will be a failure. And besides, the placebo effect offers scientific evidence for a cognitive outlook.

Chrisp +2 (one for each great post). Thank you for putting into much more eloquent words what I was trying to say when I said no one is superior to anyone else. Your analysis of ego is spot on.

@Jamie = thanks for the show of support. I'll play Dip with ya' any day.

Sorry that was meant to be @Chrisp, not @Cent...

psssst, hey guys, your patriarchal bullshit is showing

@rlumley
The main disadvantage of arrogance is it prevents you from improving.
1. As impressive as your accomplishments might be, is this the end of the road for you? You keep saying you're happy with what you are. Did you think the same 5 years ago? Do you think you have changed (improved) in this time? Any chance other people played a part in this. People you consider inferior.

2. Talking about the placebo effect and a cognitive approach - you should know that arrogance alienates other people. If you treat them with no respect they will stop talking and giving feedback. Isolationism is not the best way to learn and improve. Not to mention that it probably feels better if you're both successful and not considered a universal asshole, which a lot of successful people fail to achieve.

I'm not saying I act like this in public... I never voulenteer how little of people. But this is teh interblagz, and I'll never meet any of you. :-P

And I disagree. Arrogance does not prevent you from improving... I'm happy with what I am, but that's like I'm happy with the way college football turned out last week, because LSU (My favorite team) won, and Tennessee (My second favorite team) lost. Just because you are self confident in yourself, and recognize your strengths, and are proud of those strengths does not mean that you neither have flaws nor refuse to recognize them.

For example: I have an incredibly addictive personality. This is one of the reasons I'm so vehemently (personally) anti-drug. I know that I would get addicted in a heartbeat.

Also: I can't spell. Thank God I have a spell checker, or I would sound like a complete moron.

"Also: I can't spell. Thank God I have a spell checker, or I would sound like a complete moron." - rlumely

Um... Nah! WAY to easy!

"Arrogance does not prevent you from improving"

Yes, it does. You might think you're smart enough to first stand your ground and then do the 'learning' by yourself, looking impeccable to the outside world, but you're missing the point that the outside world does not react well to arrogance and with time you'll lose any realistic perception of yourself and your skills.

I've also noted many people say "I don't act like this in public". Do you really believe yourselves? :)
I just can't see why someone would role-play an arrogant brute if they are nice people in real-life.

Ivo +1

Anonymity (or at least relative obscurity) allows one the freedom to act like an ass (myself included) on the internet when they wouldn't in real life. It's a form of role playing and a means for releasing pent up aggression and/or expressing controversial opinions with the only side affect being a bunch of people you don't personally know getting pissed at you.

Because when I tell people online what I actually think of them it has no negative consequences for me, since this is not real life...

I genuinely wish I could act like this in real life and get away with it, but society hasn't progressed to the point where I can.

I role play an undead warrior that goes around and attacks everything it finds in WoW. I'm neither the undead, nor do I just whack anything that moves with a sword in real-life. It's called fantasy and is a form of escapist entertainment, much the same way as getting a bunch of people riled up in here can be fun.

That's one of the more humorous posts I've read in a while Draug.

Draug +1

But wait, you're not Undead? o.O Undead is where it's at...

You guys screw with people here because you aren't satisfied in real life? I'm not sure webdiplomacy is the solution you are looking for.

What you are both (Draugnar and rlumley) telling me is that you have decided that in this certain 'universe' (this site) you don't care about anything and just vent... because it has no negative consequences.

Fine.

All I'm saying is:
1. You can have fun, vent and still care.
2. If you need to vent so much maybe something is not ok in real-life? You feel the need to insult people but don't do it simply because of the punishment?
3. There's always the risk that you're using arrogance and indifference to hide fear (from failure, from rejection, etc.)
4. I'm yet to find a nice person (in real life) acting like an ass online. Usually the two are closely related.

You know, excuses are like assholes, we all have one :)

being a jerk on here does have consequences, and this is "real life" as much as anything else. one consequence of being a jerk - people don't like you. fine if that doesn't matter to you, but both yall's posts to reflect some deeper psycho-social issues.

the point of this site is to play a game and have fun, not vent and be a jerk. in fact, every time you are a jerk, you take away from the fun which is the point of the site. so why do it?

Don't lump me in with Draug... I don't try to be a jerk on here intentionally. If I do, it's a side effect of me being completely honest. I am not as honest as I would be in real life. Example: (I'm not married, but this is just an example) Your wife buys a hideous dress. You can't tell her you don't like it. Why not? It should be perfectly socially acceptable to state that, and it's not. THAT is what I'm "venting"... Stupid social conventions that inhibit one's ability to speak one's mind don't exist on the internet - and while there may be consequences of me telling Draugnar I think he's annoying (ie. he metagames against me) they are no where near as significant as the ones in real life (ie. Draugnar and I have to work together on a group project on which we are both going to be evaluated.)

The reason I speak my mind here is not because I enjoy insulting people, or annoying them. I couldn't care less about them. I enjoy expressing myself and my opinions, and typically, those opinions violate some sort of social norm, which makes the consequences of voicing said opinion larger than the benefit I receive from the pleasure of voicing my opinion.

In short: The reason I am opinionated is this: political correctness doesn't exist on the internet.

Are you a LaVeyan Satanist, rlumely? Strikes me that it might appeal to you, given the level to which you already worship yourself and consider all other beings inferior to you?

"The reason I speak my mind here is not because I enjoy insulting people, or annoying them. I couldn't care less about them."

That explains it. I hope we never find each other in a game.

@ Jamiet:
I've never even heard of LeVeyan Satanism... sounds like a cult...

And I don't worship myself at all. I'm just confident in my abilities. And I also don't consider all other beings inferior. I consider a great number inferior. But there are a number of people (more than you would think, probably) for whom I have great respect. Some on this site.

@ Xapi: We've already played several, I believe. And why would that make you not want to play with me?

@ Jamiet:

In reading the first paragraph on Wikipedia, I can identify with some of that I suppose. I like Ayn Rand a lot, but also disagree with her a lot. The thing that turned me off most was "an eye for an eye". I very much believe in turning the other cheek. It's one of the only parts of Christian philosophy I very much like.

@rlumley

"The reason I speak my mind here is not because I enjoy insulting people, or annoying them. I couldn't care less about them. I enjoy expressing myself and my opinions, and typically, those opinions violate some sort of social norm, which makes the consequences of voicing said opinion larger than the benefit I receive from the pleasure of voicing my opinion."

Who are you expressing yourself and your opinions to? Other people I presume. People you don't care about? :)


Maybe this is a form over content issue for you. And being honest is good. But how about if you're just wrong. Or you think this is out of the question.

In the long run, if you want to be able to influence your environment in a way you believe is 'right', you need to maintain some form that makes your message acceptable to the others. Then, if there's something specific that you really have a problem with, you can decide to say "content is more important in this case so, as an exception, I'll focus on the issue and be more arrogant and rude if needed to get a resul". But if this is your default condition, well, that's just stupid somehow.

P.S. It is ok to say to your wife that a specific dress she bought does not suit her well. Saying it's "hideous" might be a problem though :). You're wife will care more about your opinion if it was not so insulting to her taste.

@ Ivo:

"Who are you expressing yourself and your opinions to? Other people I presume. People you don't care about? :)"

I care about convincing people that I am right though - because then the world becomes a more pleasant place for me. :-)

"But how about if you're just wrong. Or you think this is out of the question."

I fully admit I could be wrong. I have changed my opinions a lot. And there are issues that I can not philosophically resolve to my satisfaction. But the summation of the logical arguments made to me and made by me leads me to the conclusions I currently have. If I hear a new logical argument that leads me away, perhaps I will reconsider. Perhaps you'd like to offer one.

"In the long run, if you want to be able to influence your environment in a way you believe is 'right', you need to maintain some form that makes your message acceptable to the others. Then, if there's something specific that you really have a problem with, you can decide to say "content is more important in this case so, as an exception, I'll focus on the issue and be more arrogant and rude if needed to get a resul". But if this is your default condition, well, that's just stupid somehow."

I'll agree that being arrogant and rude is counter productive. And I wouldn't consider myself rude. The only people I can ever recall outright insulting are Draugnar and hellalt, for being a troll, and... well. I REALLY don't think I need to justify my opinions here... On the flip side, Jamiet and I have had lengthy discussions, and while we strongly disagree, I can respect her for having an opinion and being able to defend it. (You're a her if memory serves, correct?) (This also applies to many others, like Chrisp.) (I really like parenthesis)

"P.S. It is ok to say to your wife that a specific dress she bought does not suit her well. Saying it's "hideous" might be a problem though :). You're wife will care more about your opinion if it was not so insulting to her taste."

That wasn't really the point. :-P Take the scholarship dinner I just RSVPed to. I had a legitimate conflict, but if I didn't, it would have been inappropriate for me to respond: "I have no interest in attending a scholarship dinner where I will be lauded for my accomplishments by people completely unfamiliar with them. I have no interest in meeting people whom I will never ever see again and pretending I am interested in their lives, nor would I be interested in them pretending they are interested in mine." But that is essentially how I feel about it. I am very thankful for the scholarship, and don't want to lose it, so I attended last year, and was a generally pleasant attendee (At least on the outside.) But truthfully, I found the situation awkward, uncomfortable, and boring.

And as a side note: As much as you think I "worship myself", I really hate being congratulated or thanked... I generally find it incredibly uncomfortable to be told how awesome I am. (But that's usually because the list goes on so long. :-P)

@ivo - I'm also different from RL in that my usual views have some backing with a number of members here. It's (usually) only when someone insults me blatantly that I go off on them. But as far as the view of superiority and egotism - I fall right in line with what Chrisp said earlier. And I don't believe modesty or even self admittance of my failings (of which I have many) is in any way self-deprecating to inflate my ego by saying "see I'm a good person," because, in fact, I'm not that good of a person.

I, like any person, am complex and have many motivations, successes, and failures. My wife of 20+ years and I have a decent relationship to the point that I can tell her I what I think (with some tact) and she can to me (although she lacks tact more often than not) and we both have learned to live with our various flaws (my condecension and exasperation on occassion; her incessant nagging every 5 minutes when she wants something done even if it isn't convenient at the moment). In short I'm a normal human being who occassionally fires a volley across someone's bow or broadsides them online.

"because, in fact, I'm not that good of a person."

I think it's important to be careful how you define yourself and what you wish for. Saying "I'm not a good person (...and I'll never be)" sounds a lot like an excuse for being an asshole.

Most people's lives are a self-fulfilling prophecy.

@ Ivo/Draug: "I think it's important to be careful how you define yourself and what you wish for. Saying "I'm not a good person (...and I'll never be)" sounds a lot like an excuse for being an asshole.

Most people's lives are a self-fulfilling prophecy."

QFT

See also: Re: Placebo Effect.

But I didn't say "(...and I'll never be)". Ivo, you are putting words (literally) where the didn't previously exist. I strive to be better. I work daily at it. But I am a flawed hmaun being, and as such, I am not a good person. I am an acceptable person in most circles, and I'm no criminal, but I have an ego and I have a temper and I make mistakes that disqualify me, and pretty much everyone save Mother Teresa and the Dali Lama from being able to claim they are truly good people. Everyone else has their good and bad days.