There is no free will in wanting to live. It is a desire that we cannot overcome, and if it cannot be overcome then where is the free will?
Our actions, any of them, are not free because they are all brought about by causes that would make any other action impossible.

Well hello! I came to this conclusion earlier in the thread.

@ My name is Mud
Actually, you are wrong. It is inherent to want to live and yes it is almost impossible to change that but why would you? Do YOU want to die? Also you can overcome it. It's called Suicide. And there can be multiple actions. I can brush me teeth properly, I can brush me teeth in 5 secs, I can floss and brush me teeth, I can just floss, I can do neither. I can do this wherever I want that I can get to and anytime I want as long as I have the necessary materials to do so. So you are wrong.

Free Will is possible accept it! I dare you to probe it otherwise.

*prove*

@ Darth
"If you persist in saying that you are free, that you move or do things without a cause, that simply means that you are ignorant of the cause of your motion or action."
P.H. d'Holbach

Well thanks for telling me im wrong :)
Any ways I don't want do die because it is something that i work very hard to try and avoid like eating drinking etc.

You said "Even suicidal people want to live to some extent."
Them committing suicide is because of an influence beyond their control.

Just because you have choices does NOT mean free will exists. The fact that you choose to brush your teeth for 5 sec or a long time is based on an infulence. Maybe you were late for work or your dentist told you to brush very well. For EVERY action there is an influence that you can't get around. There would be no actions without influences.

@My_name_is_Mud what you say is true. But now you are using a different definition of free will than Darth. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Spyman,
Would you mind letting me know what his definition is in some other words, yes i read it but it was a little fuzzy.

I never said that I didn't have a cause. Any action requires a cause which I agree with you on.
Important: FREE WILL IS THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE YOUR ACTIONS BASED ON WANT YOU WANT TO ANY EXTENT WHETHER IT BE BIG OR SMALL.

No committing suicide is not an influence beyond their control. Their mind is working against itself. Half of it says live, half die, whichever wins is the outcome.

Also, if my dentist told me to brush well, I still have to take Responsibility for MY ACTIONS and brush well. Again, of course every action has an influence.

FREE WILL IS DOING SOMETHING BECAUSE OF YOUR INFLUENCE TO SOME POINT WHETHER BIG OR SMALL.

And your choice to try not to die. You could try to commit suicide. It might not work but you can still try.

His defition is that if you are able to choose what you want (regardless of the cause of those wants) then you have free will.

Close Spy, but it's because part of you wants to do that.. Which is part of the cause for the action. 1% of the overall cause could be you wanting to, but that still makes it Free Will because you want to do that action whatever it is.

By this definition though, we might argue that a robot has a free will. Imagine a robot who job it is select hard objects from a bucket containing a mixture of hard objects and soft objects and move them to another bucket. It is capable of moving the soft objects but it "does not want to". Thus it freely chooses the hard objects. However if I put a lid on the bucket containing the hard and soft objects I have denied it the ability to choose any object thus denying it free will.

Robots have no control over that as we program everything they do. If we did create a robot that could do that then yes it would have free will.

Sorry Darth I posted that before I saw you last message. I need to think a little about what you just said.

Basically a robot is a way to do two things at once. We can write paper work and it can do the hard work as long as it's programmed right.

@Darth

You agree with the influence part, and that is key because you don't just freely pick which influence you will let affect you.

Say you were going to jump out of a window. Thats a choice is it not? You also have the choice to stay inside. You want to jump out the window though. So, correct me if im wrong, you say that because you want to jump out of the window you have free will?

This is not the case however. Whatever influence made you "want" to jump out the window takes away the free will of the situation.

So does anyone else want to argue that Free Will doesn't exist if Free Will is your influence being a part of the cause for the action you are taking.

UGGH! If I jump out of the window and part of the Influence is MY influence then It is Free Will.

Our influences are like the programs we run our life by.

Wait what is "MY influence"?

Well if we are programmed by God then God gives us plenty of room for making different decisions in different situations.

Darth you argue that robot does not have free will becuase it does not choose its "wants". Do we choose our wants? Are not my desires ultimately a product of external causes: namely my genetics and environmental influences?

Your influence is the fact that you want to do that. You are thinking, Hey I should jump out that window.

Spyman, Robots CANNOT no matter what chose their wants unless programmed to do so. We can. If you are addicted to Drugs you can get over that and be drug free.

Exactly Spyman!!

*Internet high five*

Yes, maybe intially we can't choose our wants Spyman, but as a kid when that is happening your wants are fairly simple. This of course is where fate comes in. Something you can't control that affects your decisions and wants.

And why are you thinking hey i should jump out that window? it's because of an influence (whatever it may be) that made you think that. An influence that you can't control.

We should really stop arguing about Free Will until we can determine whether or not Fate can coexist with Free Will.

@ Mud, this where fate might come in, or previous actions caused by your free will.