"Which you would know if you'd ever wearied yourself with real study."

Coming from the same person who can't even get the timeline of the historiography of the Dark Ages right. It's a Protestant smear campaign, sure it is.

"Really we have millions of Jesus freaks and historians and antiquarians scouring the earth for anything Jesus and can't turn up a single thing written down. "

How many 1980 year old documents do you know of?

"The new excuse is literacy isn't necessary for education!"

You confuse literacy (the ability to read) with publication (having written something down). They are not one in the same. As far as literacy goes, How does a blind man who cannot use his body learn? He does so through hearing. Yet he cannot read nor can he write (I said he couldn't use his body, so don't be your usual fucktarded self). No, neither the ability to read nor write is required to become educated and intellect is not dependent upon them. There are plenty of dyslexic people in the world who are quite smart and more than enough people who can read but are still dumber than a box of rocks.

Considering you claim that that it was a Protestant invention to denigrate Catholics, which is wholly untrue, I don't trust what you say about 'modern scholarship' and the Dark Ages.

"Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them." ANYTHING. Do not study anything except the sayings of wise men who are inspired by the 'one shepherd'. Knowledge is not important, only keeping the commandments is important.

What he essentially said was the Dark Ages are a fiction created after the fact by Protestantism. Do I agree? No. But nothing about his statement was inconsistent with observable facts and timelines to the best of my knowledge. Protestantism came around within the last half millennia or so, well after the claimed time of the Dark Ages. So why couldn't the Protestants have made it up to make the Catholics look bad. There was a time when I wouldn't have put it past some of them, considering the vitriolic and sometimes violent hatred that still exists in some parts of the world between the two today.

"You confuse literacy (the ability to read) with publication (having written something down). They are not one in the same."

I'm not confusing anything. You claim that writing things down and reading (literacy) are not necessary for education. You said it, twice now.

"How does a blind man who cannot use his body learn? He does so through hearing."

Brail.

"Yet he cannot read nor can he write"

Not true.

"No, neither the ability to read nor write is required to become educated and intellect is not dependent upon them."

This statement is ridiculous.

"There are plenty of dyslexic people in the world who are quite smart "

Dyslexic people are not per se illiterate!

"There are plenty of dyslexic people in the world who are quite smart and more than enough people who can read but are still dumber than a box of rocks."

Your denigration of literacy is the most asinine thing I've read here in a long time.

We bookish types also tend to assume that the "good life" requires bookishness. There are many good, moral people who are not scholars. Maybe the God of thr Bible is their God, too.

Now Draugnar is smearing his own people in order to be a contrarian here. The term dark ages was coined by Italian humanists well before the reformation. But nevermind, the trivial achievements of Charlemagne's clerics somehow make the whole thing a myth.

Ecclesiastes 12 in full brings the true meaning into perspective.

1 Remember your Creator in the days of your youth, before the days of trouble come and the years approach when you will say, "I find no pleasure in them"-- 2 before the sun and the light and the moon and the stars grow dark, and the clouds return after the rain; 3 when the keepers of the house tremble, and the strong men stoop, when the grinders cease because they are few, and those looking through the windows grow dim; 4 when the doors to the street are closed and the sound of grinding fades; when men rise up at the sound of birds, but all their songs grow faint; 5 when men are afraid of heights and of dangers in the streets; when the almond tree blossoms and the grasshopper drags himself along and desire no longer is stirred. Then man goes to his eternal home and mourners go about the streets. 6 Remember him--before the silver cord is severed, or the golden bowl is broken; before the pitcher is shattered at the spring, or the wheel broken at the well, 7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. 8 "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Everything is meaningless!"

9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but also he imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs. 10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true. 11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails--given by one Shepherd. 12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body. 13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole [duty] of man. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

This clearly speaks of the end of an individuals life. It is a command for worshipping God and learning his Word now, before it is too late when all else will be "Meaningless" for we won't be Engineers and Architects and Physicists and Chemists and Scholars and the like when our bodies have returned to dust and our spirits returned to God who created them. So therefore, all the rest is meaningless in the end and we should be wary of studying it alone and not taking time to study the Word of God. For when we lay on our death bed, only the Word of God and our understanding of it will have any meaning.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0898707811/ref=redir_mdp_mobile

"There are many good, moral people who are not scholars."

We're not talking about goodness or morality. We're talking about education and intellectual pursuits.

But why bother staying on topic. Let's go down another dipplayer2004 induced rabbit hole.

Bah. That didn't work. Hard to post links on my phone

"Brail."

Putin proves yet again that he has selective reading comprehension. If Stephen Hawking were blind, he couldn't read Braille (next time spell it right) because he *can't use his body*. I made that very clear but your selective comprehension sort of skipped that part, didn't it...

Putin, you are the one making education the One True Good Thing.

Knowledge and educational pursuits are "meaningless". and have no intrinsic value. Thanks for proving my point. My work here is done.

Google "dark ages myth". Then weary yourself with some actual learning.

You make no sense Putin.

I didn't denigrate literacy, I merely pointed out a simple fact. The ability to read and write does not make one an intellectual giant nor does an inability to read or write doom one to a life of ignorance and ineptitude.

http://www.strangenotions.com/gods-philosophers/

"Knowledge and educational pursuits are "meaningless". and have no intrinsic value."

When you die, no they don't. Can't take your brain with you intact and God doesn't give a fuck that you can quote Pi to 100 decimal places or compute the volume of a sphere. Education and knowledge are for our time here on earth. When that time is through, they no longer serve a purpose to us. And when the end of days comes, they will no longer serve a purpose to anyone.

"Putin, you are the one making education the One True Good Thing."

The whole point of this dispute was to discern whether the bible discourages intellectualism and education. You want to bring up any number of side issues, to deflect from the main point.

And anyway, education *is* the most good thing. That post-Hellenistic religion denigrates it is reason enough to reject it for being the backwards nonsense that it is.

It doesn't discourage it, it merely places a priority on it below worship and seeking an understanding of God and His Will. Again, Ecclesiastes is entirely about finding the right balance in your life.

Follow the link I posted. Learn something.

I don't know what happened to you in your past that makes you so bitterly hate all things religion and especially Christianity, Putin. Were you abused by a priest or something?

Since education is the highest good to you.
(Based on what? Faith?).

I value learning for its own sake and for my own self-actualization, not whether it gives me any utility in the non-existent 'afterlife'. And nothing currently in existence has a purpose when the heat death of the universe comes, so I guess we might as well throw it all away if we're to follow Christian dogma.

"I don't know what happened to you in your past that makes you so bitterly hate all things religion and especially Christianity, Putin. Were you abused by a priest or something? "

I don't fully agree with Putin, but I support him far more than these sort of pathetic attempts to derail the conversation.

Again, you misinterpret. It says it is meaningless at the end. I posted the entire text of Ecc 12 so you can see it was referring both to the end of an individual's life and the end of days when the Teacher will call out "Meaningless! All is Meaningless!" What is meaningless at the end is not meaningless now. As such, prioritize your study so that the study of God's Word comes first and all other second. That is what the scripture says. It says "too much" is wearisome. At no point does it say "don't study beyond the Word at all". It just says "Study of non-Godly subjects is meaningless in the end". It is an exhortation to prioritize your life.

So self-actualization is a good thing? Why?

@Mendax - It was an honest inquiry as to why he is full of gleetred for Christianity and gleengrily attacks it at every opportunity.