@ jpwalters

When you play those "cards" you are only acting with the finite knowledge that you have gained up to the point of playing them.
You could only play each card one way. So this too has already been predetermined.

Example: You've been looking for a house for a while and your just about to give up and continue living with your Mom and then you overhear or somebody tells you about this really nice place that's affordable for sale over in some area near where you work.

Do robots have free will?

Oh well I think then with that definition that the original question, "What causes our actions? Free will or fate?" is too exclusive. Or actually irrelevant because fate can exist within the free will idea. Fate is just a part of either free will or determinism.

Robots currently don't have minds of their own and follow a predetermined program. So basically Robots follow fate right now.

Ha robots could not have free will.

Lol that is funny. Now people do not go and make adaptive robots. We don't want a real life Terminator or iRobot.

but if they were robot pirates maybe.

Wait people are using fate as in it means free will does not exist, can we all agree on a definition?

Yes, and then use them as training for Ninjas.

Good point. We might all have different ideas what free will is.

For example, if I am mugged at gun point and told to hand over my wallet, is it my free will to hand the robber my wallet?
Or if perform an unconscious action is that free will?
Or if I am so overcome by emotion that I can't stop myself from crying (or laughing) is that free will?

Ha none of those are free will...you are going about a deterministic proof.

The unconscious and emotional crying are subconscious activities governed by your brain that you react to without thinking. You can if you tried to, stop breathing or crying but it takes effort as your survival instinct wants to take over and let you live or in the crying case relieve stress or whatever.

I agree...so what are leading to? That it is not free will?

How about this then? I make a decision in my unconcious mind, but then become conscious of making the decision afterwards. Is that free will?

Well, subconscious activity is hard because if were going with the God thing here then God gave your brain the ability to do certain thing necessary for life on your own, such as feel hunger, react to pain, sleep, relieve yourself, breathe etc. It is technically free will because you could make yourself not breathe but it would be extremely hard as you are working against yourself.

@Darth your example is a bit like my mugger analogy. You could resist the urge to breathe (to a point) but you would then suffer the consequences. That fact those consequences feel unpleasant has been pre-programmed, just like a robot.

im not sure about fate or free will- but luck, flat out pure luck, is nonexistent. everytime something happens that is supposedly luck- such as rolling a die- is determined by outside factors we dont notice. say you roll it on carpet. the motion of your hand, the weight of the die, the carpet, a slight breeze, all affect the outcome. maybe god has a hand in it, slightly altering these without our noticing, but really, think about it...is there really just no reason whatsoever behind the outcome? things are considered left to luck when they are left to factors beyond our control. getting bad weather on a date you picked to have a picnic, for another example. no, thats not 'bad luck'. its not completely random. its just controlled by factors we dont notice.

Not breathing is not proof of free will. When you tell yourself to not breathe there is a motive there. You are not breathing because of this motive and the motive was brought about by other predetermined circumstances.

if its not luck, its something where we clearly saw how we affected the outcome, where majority of the reason behind the outcome is an action we made rather than an outside factor that goes unnoticed.

The thing is Spyman, those "pre-programmed" responses are an effort to keep you alive through instinct. Which is what most animals are controlled by. Humans are still animals and therefore still have instinct. We could argue all day about whether instinct is fate or free will but all in all it doesn't matter as it prevents you from dieing so it's not worth discussing.

@My name is Mud

All actions are brought on by motives otherwise we would never do them as rationalizing beings. It's whether those are your motives or not that count.

@iMurk the concept of randomness is integral to quantum physics. Eintstein had serious doubts about this hence his statment "God does not play dice with the universe."

@Darth the title of this thread is Free Will versus Fate. Before we set about proving that all actions are determined we need to establish that at least some actions are determined. Most people will aggree that we can consider unconcious actions to be determined. The question is whether or not conscious actions are predetermined. The point I made in an earlier post was that even our conscious decision are made in the unconscious before we become conscious of them. This would suggest that free will does not exist.

The existence of Free Will is based purely on the fact that our actions are what we want them to because we want them to be that way. Thus our own Motives. If we did something because someone else wanted us to and only because someone else wanted us to, no other reasons, then free will does not exist. We breathe because we want to live. We subconsciously tell our arm to move before we realize its moved because we want to because it is simpler that way. We have instincts to simplify living. Which every living things wants to do is live. Even suicidal people want to live to some extent.

@Darth I agree that free will, as you have defined it, exists then.

I think, though, if we accept your definition the title of this thread might be a false dichotomy: perhaps free will and fate can both be true.

so therefore we do have free will and I dare someone to prove it otherwise.

My Definition: The ability to take action because YOU want to no matter how much or little you want to or how obvious the reason is.

Yes Fate can coexist with free will.