regardless of whether the prisons were originally created for foreigners or not.
a prison system outside the rule of law where torture takes place. doesnt matter who it was originally created for.
pinochets prisons were originally created for captured enemy insurgents, then turned it on its own people.

Invictus, my example was not one guy. it was thousands, palmer raids, red scare, green scare, fuck, eugene debbs got 10 years in prison for giving a speech on the constitution.
10 YEARS IN PRISON FOR GIVING A SPEECH ON THE CONSTITUTION!!!!

dont turn this around friend, jose padilla as a person is irrelevant. he could be inncocent as a baby or more ruthless than charles manson. the point is he is a US citizen who had constitutional rights suspended. in 3 years he seen his lawyer 4 times, thasts including at his trial, which by the way took 3 years to get.
so an AMERICAN CITIZEN was denied constitutional rights and held in guantanamo bay for 3 years with no trial.
and when you look into the trial it becomes even more suspect. there was no evidence at all, fuck they convicted him of a crime that they didnt charge him with until the day before the trial.

so you said this system couldnt be used against US citizens (us!) then you were wrong. I'm fairly sure there have been other americans in guantanamo too, I'll have to look into it, (I have a guantanamo prisoner list)
and maybe padilla was an upstanding citizen or maybe he was.. not so great, the point is if they can do it to him, they can do it to you

wake the fuck up and drop your naive illusions about the benevolence of the US government.

If you hate the US so much, point out a country with a better record, their whole history included. Point out a country that was founded on better principles.

Point out an alternative *already in place* (i.e. that is proven to work) that is better.

Sicarius is anti-government, period. He is one of those conspiracy theorizing antidisestablishmentarianists.

oops, should be disestablismentarianist, not anti-

Sic, I haven't seen a reply to my post yet. Admittedly your posts are quite large and somewhat hard to read, so I apologize if you've already posted it-- but surely it's not a problem to repost your argument to me so I can more easily read it, if this is really an important issue to you?

yeah careful with those anti's

I didnt say I hated the US. I'm just distrustful of government. they always commit injustices to people. name any government ever in the history of earth in any part of the world in any time period that has not commited injustices.
if I could pick any country to live in based on its constitution or laws, it would probably be the US.
but the least smelly spot on a pile of shit... well you're still in a pile of shit.

kats you answered your own question. "yet"

I"m really not big on conspiracies

the one I will admit to beleiving in is that 9-11 was orchaestrated by criminal elements in our own government, or at least that they ar elying abotu it.
but a pretty substantial number of peopel beleive that.

sorry for all my spellig erroers I'm very very tired and this computer is fucked up

A pretty substantial number of idiots believe in 9/11 conspiracy theories.

Regarding French use of torture: A couple of well known cases: French citizens Henri Alleg (a journalist) and Maurice Audin (a student) (both pro-independence communists) were tortured... and Maurice Audin was "disappeared" in 1957 by the French military. Interestingly, numerous abductions and tortures and disappearances also occurred in Paris itself.

Henri Alleg was tortured for a month and then released with no charges ever being made against him.

"regardless of whether the prisons were originally created for foreigners or not.
a prison system outside the rule of law where torture takes place. doesnt matter who it was originally created for."
According to your original post, it matters a great deal. A secret prison designed for citizens can only be made by a government which has already turned on its people, or at least some of them, biasing any reply in favor of your anti-government argument. The only fair examples are those prison systems which have been set up specifically for foreigners -unless we contract the definition of 'citizen' to include only those who share the same ethnic or political background as the ruling class.

"I didnt say I hated the US. I'm just distrustful of government. they always commit injustices to people. name any government ever in the history of earth in any part of the world in any time period that has not commited injustices."

So you want a perfect government or nothing? There is no such thing as a perfect form of (or lack of) government, so why even bother to point it out? Nothing is perfect, so it's a statement of the obvious. I can understand mistrust, and you do have a good point about suspension of rights, but 'it's not perfect' isn't really a fair criticism.

Wow this question is dumb. Not being able to name any country doesn't prove anything. The implication is that the US will turn on its own people right? But what that even means is up for debate as well as the concept of a secret prison or who had them or didn't.

Im not surprised you don't like the education system Sic, because unless you tighten up your thesis and phrase it in a way that doesn't sound like a rhetorical question then I would fail you.

I left it deliberately vague so more examples would come up.
I"m not trying to imply any implications, well maybe I am but this is really for me and I'm not terribly concerned on your opinion of any implications

jadayne, yes I suppose thats true. but if they created a prison system that was originally for use against its own citizens, such as... confino, thats just another example of these zero accountability prisons being used to abuse the citizens of the country

Invictus, thats a very very broad general statement. yes some of them are idiots, but some of them are extremely intelligent. like politicians and CIA agents and architects and firemen and pilots and lawyers etc.
its just too broad to make sense.
thats like saying only idiots beleive in christianity. and of course, there are some very very stupid people who believe it, but there are also extremely intelligent christians

of course a perfect government doesnt exist and never will, that was my point.

There are many, many better ways to make that point.

No, anyone who thinks there was a conspiracy beyond the one between those dirty terrorists is an idiot. 9/11 conspiracy theories are an insult which would make every victim of that day roll over in their grave, those of them that have graves, that is.

so peopel who dont beleive the official account of the 9-11 attacks are idiots because... why?

because why?

the thing is, sicarius, it's easy to point at government's flaws and say "look what they've done wrong," and there are often some horrible atrocities.

What's even easier is to point out the wonderful things they do. Those affect people's lives (at least in the US) a lot more frequently, such as paved roads, R&D funding, police protection from thieves and murderers, laws protecting property rights and human rights, and electrical infrastructure all protected from foreign exploitation by a big army that no one wants to mess with.

This compared to a few hundred people being held for ten years without charge... I don't know if it really holds up.

Do the same exercise for anarchy... let's take a look at Somalia for an example. Sure, the people have total freedom to do whatever they please but... what's their life expectancy?

Also, look at how the people form governments anyway (i.e. tribes, Muslims, and the nominal government).

So, you decide. I understand that you live as an anarchist here in the US, but so much of what you see as benefits from living in anarchy you experience only because government provided the environment for you to live in.

The reason, I think, you are so vehemently decided despite what you must admit is some strong logic, is threefold:

-Your life is already comitted to anarchy, to renounce it now would be disatrous... by this I mean you would basically become a hobo or worse.
-Because of your anarchist beliefs, you have developed an extremely antagonistic relationship with the police. Getting over a personal vendetta like this takes a lot of desire and initiative that you just seem to lack.
-You have an idealism about human nature that you continue to use to rationalize anarchy and the "ideal world" that you now tell yourself you are emulating, when in reality the evidence points against it. Still, this is your ideology and you continue to deny that humans are inherently viscious toward eachother without mediation.

Sent from: Sicarius Online (459 ) Sent: Sun 08 AM...do this and I will come to your house and cook you dinner
====================================================
Yum yum. A visit from the Anarchist Dumpster Gourmet. What an honour!

first of all somalia is very far from anarchism. its just chaos and wanton violence. that is not anarchy.

look I'm not saying the government doesnt do good things. I really enjoy the postal service (which ironically is a private corporation now) and I enjoy hot water for showers, I enjoy electricity so I can listen to music (being not very musically inclined myself) but I do not think that roads and hot water and lots of men with guns are a good trade of for servitude.
And I really disagree with your assertion that we need police. this is not born of some personal vendetta (though I do not deny that I do not like police, perhaps have an irrational dislike for them) but out of a simple examination of what their job actually is. that job is to protect those higher on the hierarchy from those lower on it. sure they do good deeds, catching a rapist or murderer, stopping the drunk driver before damage is done et cetera, but their job, the fundamental reason for their existence is to protect the power of those that have it, and force upon us their culture of violence (and we are living in a very violent culture)
And yes the USA's military protects us from foreign exploitation, but its ok for the military to be used as a tool for the USA to exploit others? besides americans are being exploited by foreign nations, maybe not militarily but certainly economically.
what benefits do I derive form living in anarchy? I'm not living in anarchy I'm living in the USA. you confuse me.

The reason I am so vehemently decided is because to me, its the only thing that makes sense. with my disdain for authority and my hatred of slavery, its just natural. Anarchism is freedom. And I dont know what strong logic you are reffering to but I would love to hear it.
renouncing anarchy is ridiculous to me you realize that? thats like asking a christian to renounce jesus because they've never had a ray of light save their life or some similarly implausible thing.
also I'm already a hobo, by choice, and that is by no means some end to be feared form my perspective.
Yes, I hate the police, with a burning passion. I dont hate them as individuals (at least not all) but their job is inherently violent and controlling. I hate their occupation essentially, and not them as people. also hatred of police has little to do with political beliefs. I could easily become a liberal or something and still hate the police.
I have no belief in the goodness of human nature. Humans arnt good or evil those are abstract, mostly nonsensical and most of all subjective terms. I believe that people will help each other when it is their own best interest to do so, something that can be agreed upon by utopians and nihilists alike. or the optimistic and selfish rather.

Trust me, I have question my beliefs continually, and they often change.
maybe it is you who should re-examine your philosophies.

hey man, I gotta tell you I make the best carribean chicken and fried plantains north of miami.

"its just chaos and wanton violence. that is not anarchy. "

I know what you mean but that's still really funny.

anarchy is one of those words with more than one definition that mean opposite things.
yes anarchy the word can mean chaos and wanton violence, but anarchy the philosophy? completely opposite. It's community and egalitarianism

I, the sovreign nation of Dangermouse, have created a secret prison system and not turned it against myself.

*sovereign

"its just chaos and wanton violence. that is not anarchy. "

yeah it is... i mean, how is it not. i know you hold a philisophical idea of anarchy, but it doesn't and can't exist, and you have no proof that it can.

besides that, how can you be certain in an anarchist society that people are communable and equal to eachother? who enforces this?

"Thats like asking a christian to renounce jesus because they've never had a ray of light save their life or some similarly implausible thing."

That isn't too ridiculous.. an open minded one would hold that out as a possibility at any time. Being unable to renounce a belief is a handicap.

"Humans arnt good or evil those are abstract, mostly nonsensical and most of all subjective terms."

Then, not good and evil, you don't have to call it that. But you do seem to believe that in an anarchist society people won't be murdering eachother over trvial disputes and stealing what they envy from their neighbors.

Expanding on above... about Somalia - what if the situation in Somalia is the natural result of the removal of a government. Maybe anarchy is being tried, and simply isn't working. What makes the situation there different from a situation you would envision as an anarchist? I know you will say that there are organizations like the ICU or the transitional government or foreign task forces (no more Ethiopians though), but these are forces that keep it from being even *more* atrocious.