In response to Santa:
1) Time frame - you are talking about only 100 odd years of history, as most Jews arrived in the late 19th-early 20th century. Are you happy, as an objective historian, to base your comparison of America and Europe on this?

2) Is it taboo to talk about, for example, Father Coughlin, the American Bund and, most significantly of all in my view, General Order No. 11 (1862)? It would appear to be so. Anyway here it is:
The Jews, as a class violating every regulation of trade established by the Treasury Department and also department orders, are hereby expelled from the Department [of the Tennessee] within twenty-four hours from the receipt of this order.
Post commanders will see to it that all of this class of people be furnished passes and required to leave, and any one returning after such notification will be arrested and held in confinement until an opportunity occurs of sending them out as prisoners, unless furnished with permit from headquarters.
No passes will be given these people to visit headquarters for the purpose of making personal application of trade permits.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Order_No._11_%281862%29
3) You make the rather emotional point about swastica graffiti in Holland. May I suggest that you open your eyes to this and other symbols used by the fascist right in America? There are numerous examples.
4) Your point about the Dreyfus case is good, but then there is that of Leo Frank, around the same time. Significantly, the former was eventually pardoned (Zola etc.....), while the latter was lynched(Supreme Court etc....).
5) In conclusion, in attempt to be objective rather than subjective, just because some ordinary Americans were/are anti-semetic doesn't mean that others necassarily are. I would hope that Europeans might be granted the same latitude.

On the Holocaust itself, undoubtedly it was not monocausal. I have, however, recently read this book - The Kaiser's Holocaust: Germany's Forgotten Genocide and the Colonial Roots of Nazism. Here is the wiki page on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_Genocide

I recomend the book to anyone interested in establishing the reason why the industrial slaughter of the Third Reich was rationalised by those directly involved.
I have previously referred to this book here in a similar context:
From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany

@ Mr rB. have your parents/grandparents described the events of the Dutch winter (Hongerwinter) of 1944/1945 to you? Terrible times indeed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_famine_of_1944

Full you are just a fool. Father Caughlin=the Final solution. Got it

And the general order of Grant in Tenessee, while not a high point of American tolerance, kicked Jews out of TENNESSEE IN 1862 (Hint, there were no jews in Tennessee in 1862 besides the camp followers Grant did not want around his army). It does not hold a candle to European acts of that time period and later.

"3) You make the rather emotional point about swastica graffiti in Holland. May I suggest that you open your eyes to this and other symbols used by the fascist right in America? There are numerous examples."

An I have yet to see one painted on the tall in the US in 25 years in the US, I am in the Netherlands for 2 weeks and HELLO

"4) Your point about the Dreyfus case is good, but then there is that of Leo Frank, around the same time. Significantly, the former was eventually pardoned (Zola etc.....), while the latter was lynched(Supreme Court etc....)."

Leo Frank= The Pogroms of Easter Europe. Stop being a fool ful

"5) In conclusion, in attempt to be objective rather than subjective, just because some ordinary Americans were/are anti-semetic doesn't mean that others necassarily are. I would hope that Europeans might be granted the same latitude. "

Americans didnt kill 6 million jews between 1939-1941. Sorry yhey are not granted the same latitude.

Its got to be hard to be a contrarian ful, all those mental gymnastics

Why is there even a debate as to who was the bigger antisemite? American antisemitism does not excuse the Europeans for theirs.

Ful, I'm not sure if that's what you're trying to do but it sounds an awful lot like you are.

@ Yonni absolutely not. All I do is point out the ridiculessness of the argument which goes along the lines of Europe/Europeans are intrinsically anti-semetic.
Santa may have a lot of emotion invested in this point, but that is just what it is subjective emotion. I speculate on the underlying cause of it here:
''As with so much else this argument is subjectively, rather than objectively, rooted in our individual perseptives. The vast majority (all?) of American Jews are the descendants of European migrants, whether these were ''economic'' or ''fleeing persecution'' (most likely a mixture of both, I would think). The rubric (meme?) of the all persuasive evil anti-semetic European consequently carries through from generation to generation, and even appears to be gathering momentun.''

As to being contrarian, Santa's tirade appears very rich to this european reading it in London. What a denial of the history of WW2. Let's not forget that Germany declared war on the USA after two years of war in 1941, it was not the other way round.

I don't think there should be either, but I think it is important that a position of "The Americans have done everything to the Jews that has been done in Europe" should be shown to be bullshit. Ful just continues to do this sort of thing.

"As to being contrarian, Santa's tirade appears very rich to this european reading it in London. What a denial of the history of WW2. Let's not forget that Germany declared war on the USA after two years of war in 1941, it was not the other way round. "

And?

"@ Yonni absolutely not. All I do is point out the ridiculessness of the argument which goes along the lines of Europe/Europeans are intrinsically anti-semetic."

Emotionally invested? Who is to say you are not emotionally invested, only that would explain your absolutely ludicrous mental gymnastics. There is anti antisemitism in the U.S. therefore antisemitism in Europe= antisemitism in the U.S.

No one said Europe was inherently antisemitic, or at least I didn't. I did say that much of Europe was complicit with the Holocaust. Somehow that solicited a "Well Americans are just as antisemitic" response from you.

@ santa. ''
''No one said Europe was inherently antisemitic, or at least I didn't. I did say that much of Europe was complicit with the Holocaust''

this is a not so subtle change of pitch from, the ''exceptions'' you credit here -

There were exceptions in EVERY nation but most nations were indeed complicit in the slaughter of Jews, gypsys, communists etc. The fact that there were some heroes among them only goes to show further that the actions being taken against the Jews were far from unknown

"No one said Europe was inherently antisemitic, or at least I didn't. I did say that much of Europe was complicit with the Holocaust. Somehow that solicited a "Well Americans are just as antisemitic" response from you. "

This was my feeling for how the argument went and why I made my comment. Perhaps TC said Europe was inherently antisemitic but I tend not to read his posts.

Yes TC certainly did say that and it is he that I had in mind when I made my first contribution on the Europeans are anti-semetic meme. In retrospect I underestimated how widespread this feeling was once you scratch the surface.

Well, we should all know better than to get worked up by something that TC said.

actually it is quite a subtle change, I am talking about actions that were taken, you suggest I am reading into peoples deepest held convictions. When local police ship their Jewish neighbors off to concentration camps that is complicity no matter how they felt about them before the war.

*I should say it is quite a change

@ Santa
I think that much of the British, and come to that American, police would have done the same in equivalent circumstances.
I also think that many British and Americans would have resisted the Nazis in equivalent circumstances.
It is what I might describe as your holier than though attitude that sticks in the craw I am afraid.

I also hesitate to point out a factual innaccuracy to an American historian such as you, but you are most decidely wrong on this point - ''And the general order of Grant in Tenessee, while not a high point of American tolerance, kicked Jews out of TENNESSEE IN 1862 (Hint, there were no jews in Tennessee in 1862 besides the camp followers Grant did not want around his army).''
Here is the evidence: Jewish communities on the Ohio river (page 100), available as a Google book.

and were they displaced Ful? The proclamation was aimed specifically at camp followers, your nitpicking does nothing to dispel this fact. The Danish resisted the Nazis in equivalent situations, the Bulgarians did as well as did isolated Italian and French Units. There is no saying what would have happened. All we know is what did happen, and of all the "memes" you speak of, none hold a candle to "the Nazis did it alone" meme which you seem so fond of

Keep going Ful, next we'll here that the Jews were killed by Tariffs until I get something in my PM telling me privately you didn't mean a thing you said in the thread and it was all a misunderstanding

@Ful- "Have your parents/grandparents described the events of the Dutch winter (Hongerwinter) of 1944/1945 to you? Terrible times indeed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_famine_of_1944"

Yes, they have. Fortunately they had relatives on the countryside so they didn't suffer the same faith as a lot of people in the cities did.

@Santa- Your argument that "Americans didnt kill 6 million jews between 1939-1941. Sorry yhey are not granted the same latitude." doesn't do it for me. Who knows what the Americans would have done in an equivalent situation as the one most Europeans found themselves in. Let's be grateful that we'll never know. I for one think that most Americans would have acted exactly the same as the average European citizen- your argument that antisemitism in Europe is more widely spread than in the US solely based on war events and the fact that you ran into a swastika while visiting Amsterdam is flawed.

The point I was making, SC, is that just because some other countries massacred Jews doesn't mean we get a free pass to forcibly sterilize poor people in Virginia, put Japanese-Americans in concentration camps, and firebomb the hell out of Dresden, which, by the way, was not strategically justified at all.

If you want to say it is it'd be like you're saying the Holocaust was strategically justified, cause, you know, no country that has Jews can win a war. That's insane and you know it.

Do you guys know any psychology? Every person. ALL PEOPLE are hypocrites. Everyone is the protagonist of his own story.

@ Santa ''and were they displaced Ful?''
Anywhere away from Paducah KENTUCKY, it would appear
http://www.civilwaralbum.com/misc11/paducah1.htm

Massive fail and/or denial.

The holocaust doesn't teach us that anti-semitism is an intrinsically European trait, though it does demonstrate the tragic fallout that can result from persistent politically motivated dehumanization.

On the other, I think that excusing the sins of Europe's past by reminding the forum of American historical blemishes is the wrong approach to take.

It is both counterproductive and stupid to associate blame for genocide with generally defined nation-states; the lives of whose constituent people both predate and come well after the guilty acts. If it's ridiculous to imagine the holocaust happening right now in Germany, it's ridiculously to suggest the problem is Germany as a pervasive cultural unit; rather, the problem was the socio-political structure of Germany. This goes for any country's 'attributes'. Generalization of that sort is even less helpful than normal in this circumstance.

Virtually all nations have sordid pasts of one sort of another. Why? Because surprise surprise, virtue is not a trait that can be possessed, gained or lost by nations, because they are invented, and do not HAVE essential traits. Nations contain multiple mixed societies, which individually and collectively determine morals and norms. I am happy to suggest that modern societies are by and large more just than many of those of human history.

Specifically regarding which individual's were guilty during the holocaust.

First of all, obviously some actors and perpetrators were more direct agents than others. Himmler had more agency, and did more to advance the cause than did an individual guard in one of the camps. It is wrong I think, to suggest that defying the German state and refusing to collaborate was an easy task. Helping Jews often meant death, imprisonment, and social ostracization. Even more importantly, the tragedy of the collective action problem also meant that most individuals that contemplated trying to stop the most evil among them from carrying out their goals felt they were helpless individuals against a unified collective; which was obviously not the case.

However, it is also true that society at large, both in Germany and in the territories it conquered, were in part responsible for the success of the holocaust, and in places like Lithuania, local militias were more vigilant about ensuring the death of Jews than even the SS. Many individuals joined the SS eagerly, and just as eagerly committed mass slaughter. The vast majority knew to some extent the terrors that were taking place and either ignored or denied them.

How does one assess guilt in this situation?

I mostly agree with Mr_rb in this regard. The people of Germany during the 1940s shared some collective guilt, as did many Europeans, but they were as much victims of circumstance as were their victims. No group of people is immune to the more horrific aspects of the human personality.

This leads to what I think is the most significant lesson of the holocaust; even the most banal and unremarkable individual has the capacity to be both a despicable villain or an inspiring heroic figure. We all have that capacity. The realization of either identity, it seems, comes from the fateful mix of circumstance and choice that creates all trajectories of life.

Out of the people reading this thread. If, say, we were all born into Hitler's Germany, would you have been a righteous among the nations? A camp operator? Or an average citizen who shielded his eyes when his neighbours were taken off to a 'work camp'? Statistically, you likely would have been in the third category. A sobering thought.

I think the best response is to mull on the tragedy and work out the individual choices involved. Then, try to influence your society into being the best it can be, and always make your own moral choices; even if they come into conflict with group norms. That, methinks, is a more constructive idea than attempting to smear Europeans as antisemites because of the sins of some of their ancestors. :/

@ Mr rB. Absolutely correct with this: ''Who knows what the Americans would have done in an equivalent situation as the one most Europeans found themselves in. ''

What sanctimonious emotional rubbish has been shouted here by Santa on the collective guilt of the ''Europeans'' albeit with some ''exceptions''.

and your emotional rubbish whining that it isn't so

apologize, Europeans were models of morale courage and fortitude during the war years. They, the vast majority that is, stood by their Jewish neighbors and saw them through the war. They didn't occupy their houses when they left, they didn't take their possessions or turn a blind eye when they were rounded up and sent to be liquidated. Surely, they didn't help round up their neighbors. They loved their Jewish friends which is why they all took to the streets in outrage when they were loaded onto cattle cars.

As has been shown a few nations (including a fascist one) and many individuals saved their Jewish countrymen, but doing so was obviously impossible, and how dare I pass judgement on those who knew what was occuring but did nothing.

The French saw it fit to defy the Nazis and scuttle their Navy in port, but obviously defying the Reich to save the lives of the countries Jews was just not an option.

"Anywhere away from Paducah KENTUCKY, it would appear
http://www.civilwaralbum.com/misc11/paducah1.htm

Massive fail and/or denial. "

"On December 17, 1862, under the terms of General Order No. 11, thirty Jewish families, longtime residents all, were forced from their homes. Cesar Kaskel, a prominent local Jewish businessman, dispatched a telegram to President Lincoln, and met with him, eventually succeeding in getting the order revoked."

Ful Massive reading fail!

Well we got there eventually from horrible camp followers we have come to this - ''thirty Jewish families, longtime residents all, were forced from their homes''
It has been like pulling teeth!


Well we got there eventually from this: ''
There were exceptions in EVERY nation but most nations were indeed complicit in the slaughter of Jews, gypsys, communists etc. The fact that there were some heroes among them only goes to show further that the actions being taken against the Jews were far from unknown '' to this ''As has been shown a few nations (including a fascist one) and many individuals saved their Jewish countrymen''. It has been like pulling teeth!

"Well we got there eventually from horrible camp followers we have come to this - ''thirty Jewish families, longtime residents all, were forced from their homes''
It has been like pulling teeth!"

Meant to add on if you had read one more paragraph you would see it was overturned by lincoln, talk about pulling teeth

What the fuck are you even talking about in your second paragraph.