Kestas I agree with everything except your last sentence. There are certainly ways to look at their policies as a success. Such as the fact that the tiny country is still around sixty years later.

Puddle and/or others: Hey, maybe you could help me here. I am going to have to represent the State of Israel in The Human Rights Committee/United Nations Human Rights Council of a Model United Nations. One of the topics I am responsible for is "Human Right violations occurring in the Gaza Strip" (the other is "Criminal Accountability of UN officials and experts on missions"). So, I need to right a position paper (where you state what the problem is, the history of it and your country's position on te issue) on the Gaza issue. The thing is, I see no way Israel can justify its actions. Do you have any good ideas either for my position paper or for a future resolution? Below is the full text of the issues we are debating:

"
The Human Rights Committee

The United Nations Human Rights Council is an international body within the UN structure that serves to address human rights violations. The Council is the successor to the highly-criticized United Nations Commission on Human Rights (dissent arose from the high-profile positions granted to states that did not guarantee the rights of their own citizens), and came into existence on March 15, 2006 after receiving support from 170 members (out of 191) in the General Assembly. The mission statement of the HRC states that it resolves to
o Give priority to addressing the most pressing human rights violations, both acute and chronic, particularly those that put life in imminent peril;
o Focus attention on those who are at risk and vulnerable on multiple fronts;
o Pay equal attention to the realization of civil, cultural, economic, political, and social rights, including the right to development; and
o Measure the impact of its work through the substantive benefit that is accrued, through it, to individuals around the world.
Additional to working with the UN system, the HRC works with governments, legislatures, courts, national institutions, civil society, regional and international organizations to strengthen capacity at a national level within the specific countries. The HRC is also committed to strengthen the UN human rights program to ensure that human rights form the basis for the work of the United Nations.

Issues for Human Rights

Required for debate – Main submitters: 1 min, 2 max; Co-submitters: 3 min, 4 max.

1. Question of: Securing the human rights of the Uighur People in Northwestern China:

The Uighurs are a Sunni Muslim ethnic group that speak the Turk language and live in Xinjiang, a desert area in Northwestern China. Xinjiang is an oil-rich area that has been kept under tight control by China since 1990, when a wave of protests resulted in widespread violence in the area. Tension has been mounting since 2008 due to what the Uighurs perceive as an oppression of their religion and economic well-being by the Han Chinese and an indifference of the Chinese government towards investigating these allegations. Riots broke out in July 5, 2009 in Urumqi, the capital of Xinjiang, when police confronted a protest march by Uighurs that pressed for government investigation of a conflict that occurred in a nearby factory between Uighur and Han workers; furthermore, they were fighting against the closing of mosques on the sacred day of Islam. The riots resulted in 197 dead, and 1721 injured. The Han Chinese retaliated and the result was one of the highest casualty counts in China in recent times. The Chinese government has sought to identify and arrest the instigators of the riots, although it has stated that its policy regarding minorities was not the cause of the outbreak.

2. Question of: Criminal Accountability of UN officials and experts on missions

This issue involves the explicit abuses committed by the United Nations peacekeeping forces when the same are sent to assist politically and economically unstable countries. Although their duty is to relieve tensions involving human rights violations and other internal conflicts, some of these peacekeeping officers are found to be engaging in the same crimes, which include: rape, prostitution and pedophilia. Between January 2004 and November 2006, 319 peacekeeping personnel have been reported and investigated for criminal acts. The actions of these blue-helmet soldiers are undermining the United Nation's credibility and making it more difficult for it to fulfill its mission. Moreover, due to the fact that these peacekeeping forces are given a lot of authority from an international body and because of diplomatic immunity, effective prosecution, trials and/or conviction can be extreme difficult.

3. Question of: Human Right violations occurring in the Gaza Strip

The atrocities committed in the beginning of the 2008 in the region of Gaza have taken the lives of many Palestinians. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been ongoing for years, but this specific uprising was due to missile attacks by the Hamas group against Israeli civilians, to which Israel responded by preparing a retaliatory military attack. The Israeli military has been accused of using white phosphorus in its attack in Gaza—an illegal substance that burns through the skin and violates Human Rights as stated in the Geneva Convention IV relative to the Protection of Civilians Persons in Times of War. The opposition accuses Israel of further infringing the rights of the Palestinian people by settling their troops in and around the Gaza territory; furthermore, they blame the United States for having supplied the chemical based weapons to the Israeli military. On the other hand, Israel justifies its actions by referring to the launching of missiles by the Hamas, refusing to admit any infringement of international law. This accusation is extremely relevant and of interest to the Human Rights Council as is the ongoing targeting of civilians in this conflict.

4. Question of: Guaranteeing the basic right of humans to access safe drinking water and sanitation

Water is essential to life. The right to clean and accessible water is affirmed in Article 31 of the Declaration of Human Rights; in 2002, the United Nations adopted water as a fundamental human right. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), around 880 million people do not have access to a decent source of drinking water and 2.5 billion people do not have access to proper sanitation. Due to the extensive use of water globally and climate change, which is limiting water resources, it is expected that this number will rise to 3.9 billion by 2030. In addition, international disputes over water are steadily increasing. These disputes, which are leading to violent conflict and possibly water wars, go beyond the issues involving the quantity of water, thus involving water right issues, the quality of water, health issues, environmental issues, and, of course, border lines which traverse Boundary Rivers.
"

LOL, if you see no way to defend Israel, you shouldn't be a in a Model UN in the first place. You are missing the whole point of that endeavor. Do some research on what Israel has stated there, in the press, etc, research why the US vetoes anti-Israel measures. You don't have to believe it, you just have to be able to debate it. Do your research.

DingleberryJones: Duh. I found a perfect site on the Israeli foreign ministry's website, but I was hoping for additional arguments. And before I found this I was planning to pass a resolution that outlawed everything that both Israel and the various Palestinian factions were doing (stuff that already was illegal under international law), but lacked any enforcement or effective condemnation method, thus preserving the status quo. I must say, its much easier to represent the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya than the State of Israel.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/GazaFacts/, by the way.

its-->it's

My status as a "troll" simply means that I have a poor reputation on this site. It in no way disqualifies me from a debate.

To gain land, you have to steal it from someone else. We stole a lot of land from the Native Americans, but no one (besides them) says we didn't get that land fair and square. Unless you gain control of a complete wasteland, you're going to be taking your land from someone.

They paid for every bit of that land in blood. They fought wars with their neighbors and their neighbors lost.

Haha well you guys have done a pretty good job of debunking each other, but I've a few things to say still.

1. @Whoever said it, with obvious limitations based upon history and in some cases UN involvement by and large the palestinians were given citizenship as an option. There are either 3 or 7 palestinian representatives on the Israeli Parliament. Now the offer was given back in 1967 when the territory was acquired, I don't know if its been offered since, but I do know that immigration and citizenship are attainable.

2. I'm not Israeli, I'm Jewish and I live in Florida (Ironic?) But it's important that you all understand that nearly every Jew everywhere calls Israeli "us" as a people we have retained solidarity among ourselves for millennia (yes that's right, at least 2 since the diaspora closer to 3 if you count the Babylonian diaspora) and as such we see the state of Israeli as our home away from home.

3. As a Jew, and I think nearly all other historically conscious Jews will agree with me if we are to survive as a people it will have to be through ourselves, we can not depend on governments of other people for they have unfalteringly failed to protect us from their own people (The U.S. and some isolated cases in the past century being the exceptions but they do not outweigh 2000 years of persecution at the hands of Europeans, mostly christians). Therefore it is only through ourselves that we may be safe.

4. I'm not an idiot. I do not blindly think that the Palestinians have no rights, in fact I favor the idea of a Palestinian state, but one that is an ally, a REAL ally of Israel and the Jewish people. Jews and Muslims are two sides of the same family and the fighting between us is tragic and shameful. But until real people of the faith of Islam control their countries, not religious fanatics and terrorist there will be no peace.

5. Did you know that (I don't know the actual number) more than half the time The U.N. has voted in a manner that is disrespectful, lacking a precedent among past cases, and at some occasions actually dangerous to the state of Israel? Mostly the U.S. has prevented these from passing but not always. Also anti-antisemitism is just as strong in Europe as before. A friend of mine from Hungary who still visits there has told me repeatedly of how there is still a strong superstitious fear and hatred of Jews in the small towns and villages there?

7. Also that the U.N. allowed Yasir Arrafat speak on the floor of the U.N. assembly? He was a terrorist and an Insurgent. It is exactly as if we allowed Osama Bin Laden to speak to the assembly. The only difference is that Osama Bin Laden attacked a christian dominated nation, not a Jewish one.

Don't tell me antisemitism is dead or even lessened. I actually ran into a kid at my school last year wearing a swastika arm band. Suffice to say I was suspended for thirty days. He wasn't punished in the slightest. Jews are as much in danger today as before.

Also at TMW thank you, thats how we feel, and another war in Israel means I immigrate to israel buy a kalishnikov and volunteer for a settlement militia.

I'm Jewish and I don't refer to Israelis as 'us'. I think that's a ludicrous statement.

Wow. I wishI had the tiMe to respond more to you puddle. Your last statement is filled with such crap you have actually damaged your cause.

puddle: what should i do in mexico: i'm half spaniard, (half conquerer), half chiapaneco (half conquered).
maybe i should split myself in two halfs

All I will say is that Israel is *not* a legitimate nation built on conquest or any other means. They were originally given their land by a larger, more powerful nation who took it away from their surrounding Arab neighbors and armed the populace of what would become Israel. If the Brits hadn't interferred, Israel would not exist.

i could add that if u.s. were not interfering, israel would have stopped existing, some time ago

well I understand the part about my personal remarks concerning my feelings toward Israel and antisemitism, but I am extremely firmly Jewish and a Nationalist with regards to Israel, but there is definite substance to my post.

@Dingleberry well okay not all, but a large percentage (Probably something like 65-75) of the Jews I've met and had some conversation concerning Israel which means withen the past 4 years something close to 3000 People in the East coast of the US

I rescind point 5, that information was on a book I read some time ago that while mostly true had a definite pro israel slant, so I just wikipedia'd U.N. and Israel. However in 1975 The U.N. general Assembly passed a resolution stating that Zionism was Rascism. You will also notice a long list of resolutions by the security council condemning or deploring Israel military actions against their neighbors. However many (Not all but probably a solid, but not overwhelming, majority) were RESPONSIVE attacks. I highly doubt that if any Western nation were attacked by its neighbor they wouldn't send in the troops. Yet they are condemning Israel for doing just that. That 1975 Resolution was also passed after Yassir Arrafat's visit I believe. going to check that right now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel

Well alright Yassir Arrafat was not directly involved but there is still a connection. An interesting read:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_un_zionism_racism.php

@TMW - You can say whatever you want, raise whatever points you think are valid, rebut whatever arguments you find invalid - but you have abused the courtesy of the board countless times, and hence you have lost the respect I give to the other members - and I really don't give a rat fuck if you like it or not. I will continue to ignore any points you raise. Deal with it, because unless you reform yourself, it isn't going to change.

@Puddle - half of your points are crap, and I suspect you know it. For example, there are several arab israeli members of the Knesset - yet that neither changes the second class status of non-Jewish members of the state of Israel, nor does it offer justification for some of the questionable practices Israel engages in.

and "Don't tell me antisemitism is dead or even lessened. I actually ran into a kid at my school last year wearing a swastika arm band. Suffice to say I was suspended for thirty days. He wasn't punished in the slightest. Jews are as much in danger today as before."

Are you *OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MIND*? There is a *world* of difference between some random douche wearing an armband and Dachau. You're a disgrace to the cause you claim to support if you can't tell the difference.

Firstly Stratagos, saying "fuck" a lot doesn't really give you any more credence, very little in that last post was of value, but yes there is a difference today between an armband and dachau, however the real problem is still there just better hidden, and kept under control. I'm also not saying I completely agree with Israel's actions, I think they definitely overkill with their military actions, and many of their practices are extremely questionable. However in their situation I think they have a pretty good track record.

@ Draug, I've got a lot of respect for you man, so what exactly gives a nation legitimacy? because nearly every nation in existance has been created through force of arms. I understand this is a modern world with laws we all obey, but even so, I cant really think of a true definition of legitimacy for a nation. Thats open to anyone by the way, also please give examples if possible.

> "Kestas I agree with everything except your last sentence. There are certainly ways to
> look at their policies as a success. Such as the fact that the tiny country is still around
> sixty years later."
I think that's like saying the way Australian immigrants dealt with aboriginal Australians was also successful because they survived. I think survival was assured against such a fractured and technologically primitive people, so I'm not sure about its use as a measure of success

I think TMW made some reasonable points. Not necessarily the final word, but a valid perspective. I think it's wrong to write off everything he says as "you're a troll", especially when he is being civil.
One point about point about Israel - there were Jewish people living there long before the recent nation of Israel was created. Added to that there were many who emigrated there in the 19th century and early 20th century. There were also many Arabs who emigrated there at the same time. Many of whom who came to take advantage of the employment opportunities generated by Jewish investment in the area. Indeed I don't think it would be controversial to say that most people who live in the region are descended from people who arrived in the last 150 years.
With regards to current Israel policies - there no doubt they have made plenty of terrible mistakes, but we are talking about a very complex situation.

@ TMW: "We stole a lot of land from the Native Americans, but no one (besides them) says we didn't get that land fair and square."

I do. Listen to me say it: You didn't get that land fair and square.

@ Puddle: "nearly every Jew everywhere calls Israeli "us" "

I don't believe that's the case. I know several jewish people and none of them see themselves as Israeli.

"I think nearly all other historically conscious Jews will agree with me if we are to survive as a people..."

Survive? That sounds a bit paranoid. Who is currently trying to wipe out the Jewish race?

"Did you know that (I don't know the actual number) more than half the time The U.N. has voted in a manner that is disrespectful, lacking a precedent among past cases, and at some occasions actually dangerous to the state of Israel? Mostly the U.S. has prevented these from passing but not always. Also anti-antisemitism is just as strong in Europe as before."

Your use of 'also' in this paragraph implies you think that when the U.N. votes to condemn Israel for killing Palestinian civilians and children, they are voting based on anti-semitism. That's not the case at all.

"Also that the U.N. allowed Yasir Arrafat speak on the floor of the U.N. assembly? He was a terrorist and an Insurgent."

Was he? Or was he a freedom fighter? Israel employs state terrorism against the Palestinians on a daily basis. The Israeli government are bigger terrorists than Arafat ever was.

"I actually ran into a kid at my school last year wearing a swastika arm band. Suffice to say I was suspended for thirty days."

You were suspended for what, exactly? Did you attack him?

There are a few neo-Nazi nutjobs, who I agree need to be tackled, but they are not a serious threat. The Jews are not in imminent danger of extermination.

"and another war in Israel means I immigrate to israel buy a kalishnikov and volunteer for a settlement militia"

Your funeral.

Kestas, I've come to respect your opinion over the past couple of years, but your simplification of the issue at hand here saddens me. Aboriginals didn't have the support of New Zealand and Indonesia who regularly supply it arms, and who fought multiple wars in their name. And there was no Jordan nearby, which is majority aboriginal, which was contiguous to the they lived in.

I never understand the 'Israel is not a legitimate nation' argument on 2 grounds. First, I'm not sure it matters. Its there and I don't think any rational person think its going away voluntarily, so deal with that fact. Second, the US, Canada and Australia were settled the same way, and I don't see people making that argument about those country. Is it just a time issue? In 50 years, does Israel magically become legitimate?

Puddle, I can't even reply to most of your silliness. Your opinions seemed to be based on whatever you learned from Wikipedia and your school age Jewish friends. I come from a very highly non-orthodox Jewish populated area of NJ. I have never heard anyone say 'we' when discussing this topic. As a matter of fact, I find it extremely important for my own life to differentiate between Jews and Israelis - I am NOT an Israeli. I support that nation, but I am NOT Israeli.

I said before that that it uncontroversial that the majority of the population of the country that is now Israel, whether Jewish or Arab, are descended from migrants who have arrived there in the past 150 years: I might be being a bit lose with the term "uncontroversial" - it probably is controversial. However I don't think it is uncontroversial to say there has been a lot of Arab migration to the area.
What I said was based on an articles I read some years ago (who knows maybe it was propaganda?). But here is a link to a website that discusses this idea:
http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm

@Puddle: "and another war in Israel means I immigrate to israel buy a kalishnikov and volunteer for a settlement militia"

I'll buy you the ticket, the AK47 and the shroud . . . or else treatment for your paranoia.