Just remind me not get into a disagreement with Acosmist.

I think it is our patriotic duty to form a global diplomacy corp. I think we would all be a great asset when the chips are down and people will need people to lie to one another and make promise sthey have no intention of keeping.

As the Diplomatic Corp is just a figment of my imagination at this moment in time, I'm pretty sure that you will never be required to lay down your lives in anger. I promise that should you be willing to sign you name below I will do all that I can to get my good buddy TGM to add 100 diplomacy points to your accounts.

Sign below please - you know it makes sense.

Maniac
Draugnar
Invictus

Maniac can get this done. He is the President, after all.

I think it is our patriotic duty to form a global diplomacy corp. I think we would all be a great asset when the chips are down and people will need people to lie to one another and make promise sthey have no intention of keeping.

As the Diplomatic Corp is just a figment of my imagination at this moment in time, I'm pretty sure that you will never be required to lay down your lives in anger. I promise that should you be willing to sign you name below I will do all that I can to get my good buddy TGM to add 100 diplomacy points to your accounts.

Sign below please - you know it makes sense.

Maniac
Draugnar
Invictus
TheGhostmaker

@Maniac, lol.
@jbalcorn, agreed on all points.
@Acosmist,
as far as using ad hominem attacks... I should not have done that - and I have stopped... please realize that you were the first to strike: "It's like fighting a battle of wits with an unarmed man."

We disagree about what the implications are for registering for a service that one is ethically opposed to. I say it's a slippery slope that you are asked to start down... no harm in that first step, right? I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this.

I understand the law on this topic... I studied it 30+ years ago and I don't believe it's changed, has it? I also clearly remember the politics of the passage of this law... right on the heels of people burning their draft cards and going to jail in large numbers and lieutenants getting "fragged"... it was a way of acclimating people slowly to the idea of a future draft and submission to the military. A full peacetime draft was discussed - and favored by many... but was also loudly opposed... this SS arrangement was a half-way measure for the government to keep their foot in the door and get symbolic cooperation from the public at large. Getting everyone to walk in line can be a powerful thing.

You note: administrative costs. Why exactly have a SS registration in the first place? Never had it before to my knowledge... why the sudden need in the late '70s? Doesn't the existence of a SS over the last 3 decades create an administrative cost? Doesn't that extra administrative cost argue against administrative savings being a valid reason that CO status can't be claimed on the form in the first place. It cracked me up to hear you use the marketing line the SS uses "it's fast, it's easy" - yes, indeed. What exactly would be hard about adding a check box that says "Conscentious Objector status claimed" on it? For example... I get a ticket and the signature box at the bottom specifically tells me that "Without admitting guilt, I promise to appear..." No - no such verbiage on the SS form. You are "registering" for the SS... and the common public understanding when you fill out a form and sign is that you are agreeing to something... in this case, the SS. There is no caveat made on the form - so, what is the message when they demand under severe penalty that we sign this supposedly meaningless form?

You note: that there is a mechanism for COs in place. Yes - should there be a draft, they can object. Yes, as the law currently stands. Should the law change or be suspended (oh - that never happens) there is your signature signing up for the SS.

You note: Signing up does not bring you under the purview of the SS - you were already under the purview of the law. Reasonable enough. So, why exactly is it required?

You note: Selective Service regulations that reflect the "whims" of the agency are arbitrary and capricious, and void under the Administrative Procedure Act.
I see requiring registration as a "whim" that has no practical purpose other than to cow people into submission in the event of a draft. Again - such registration was never required before (correct me if I'm wrong) - why the need beginning in the 1970's?

You note: that the IRS has no appropriate authority over SS related tasks... that may have been... It sounds logical enough. ...except that war powers pretty much give the executive branch a free hand - and such restrictions would be quickly and unceremoniously ignored should the "need" arise. See extensive wire tapping if you doubt such things will happen when the government wants them to. But more to the point... previous wars (prior to Vietnam... arguably the first American War where it was widely recognized by the public as unnecessary) in previous wars draft offices would open up and people would sign themselves up when the need was there and the declaration of war made. Much more efficient, by the way... not to mention a being a rallying point and source of pride when fighting just wars.

Anyway - I'll look for your response should you give one... but please, no more on how I couldn't possibly understand the issue because I'm not a lawyer. I understand the issues just fine.

Why do you have such a bug up your butt about this?

Acosmist's point about administrative costs are in reference to having to deal with eliminating people from the registration process itself due to being a conscientious objector. If you object to military service then you say that when there's actually a draft, but the law as written now just requires that you put your name in the pool.

"You are "registering" for the SS... and the common public understanding when you fill out a form and sign is that you are agreeing to something... in this case, the SS. There is no caveat made on the form - so, what is the message when they demand under severe penalty that we sign this supposedly meaningless form?"

That doesn't make sense. By registering you are following the law as registering for Selective Service is compulsory for males over the age of 18. You're not agreeing to it any more than showing up to your court date or paying taxes is agreeing to something. You're following the law. The second sentence doesn't even make sense.

With reference to the law about conscientious objectors being changed, I don't understand what you mean. Surely if there was a draft the government could just force you to join the army without your signature, that or put you in prison for draft dodging. Since being a true conscientious objector is probably a treaty thing I don't know how the law could just change, or even why the government would want to try short of there being a Chinese army on the Potomac.

"Signing up does not bring you under the purview of the SS - you were already under the purview of the law. Reasonable enough. So, why exactly is it required?"

There's that lottery for the order of young men being called which is based on their birthday. I would thing having to register is so that the military has the information on all the men already and can call specific groups up quickly in a time of war.

"Again - such registration was never required before (correct me if I'm wrong) - why the need beginning in the 1970's? "

Just on the face of it that doesn't make sense. Even with different systems in place, there must always have been some sort of registration process as long as there's been conscription. How do you imagine the Union organized all the drafted men in the Civil War? They must have been putting their names somewhere. Plus there was a peacetime draft from before WWII till this system was put in. Would it be so crazy to think that they were somehow registering?

"in previous wars draft offices would open up and people would sign themselves up when the need was there and the declaration of war made. Much more efficient, by the way... not to mention a being a rallying point and source of pride when fighting just wars."

But it was still compulsory, and even actually required service from many people. Elvis was drafted. Nobody just signed themselves up, even if they were feeling patriotic. It wasn't a volunteer army.

It's not like registering is that big of a deal anyway.

I think it is our patriotic duty to form a global diplomacy corp. I think we would all be a great asset when the chips are down and people will need people to lie to one another and make promise sthey have no intention of keeping.

As the Diplomatic Corp is just a figment of my imagination at this moment in time, I'm pretty sure that you will never be required to lay down your lives in anger. I promise that should you be willing to sign you name below I will do all that I can to get my good buddy TGM to add 100 diplomacy points to your accounts.

Sign below please - you know it makes sense.

Maniac
Draugnar
Invictus
TheGhostmaker
Conservative Man

Actually, if you want to avoid being drafted... sign up and get out with a medical/psychological discharge. You're not likely to be drafted if you've been shunted out before.

@Invictus & @Acosmist, I guess I *am* acting a bit like I got a bug up my butt. Sorry. I'm going to stop harping on this... this will be my last post on the matter. I looked into it and, you both are right in that registration for a draft is not unusual, historically. Though interestingly only 2% of the total military force in the Civil War, for example, was drafted... 6% were paid replacements, and the rest volunteered. Yes, more than 90% volunteers. And yes, FDR instituted the first peace-time registration and draft in 1940 - I'm sure in anticipation of our involvement in WWII. But the strange thing about the recent/current arrangement is that there is permanent registration without a draft... I believe that is a first in this country. And I don't get it. And in reaction to not getting it I come up with theories to explain why... but I really don't know... and I guess I should dial it down a little, lest I *start* sounding like a truther. But the question remains, why is there a permanent registration now (since 1980, as it turns out)? Seems weird at the least. As has been pointed out - it doesn't look like we'll have a draft anytime soon... but the mood was entirely different in 1980. Enough babbling from me.

"It's not like registering is that big of a deal anyway."

I wonder how many 'undesirables' told themselves that when the Nazis rolled into town. Or Communists, or whoever - it doesn't really matter who. Hell, the government of the United States of America used census records to round up all the Americans of Japanese descent and ship them off to concentration camps. Tyranny and State oppression always begins with a list.

Thread Godwin'd, we can all go home, folks.

No need to say sorry Dexter, you managed to do something that no one else has ever achieved- get Acosmist to write longer than one line snarky comments! but hey it turns out his longer post are just as snarky;) Acosmist, you may be right but do you have to be so aggresive and unfriendly ?

Im glad Australia doesnt have this system, for me i would follow a draft IF the war was australia being invaded but if it (more likely) is just another overseas resource securing and making sure the natives dont go for economic independence mission then im on the plane to sweden.

I think Acosmist used the "appeal to authority" fallacy at one point in this thread. Um Mah I am telling his logic professor on him :P

Did this argument reach a resolution? Awesome, we broke the internet.

Also, spyman, point out the supposed fallacy so I can either admit to it or refute you.

I was only kidding. It was when you said "I am an attorney" (or something like that). Appeals to authority have their place.

I said that after I cited the relevant law <_<

> I know kestas is in law school..
haha I'm sure someone else has corrected this by now but I'm studying computer science, not law (I wouldn't have the patience for that)

(Also hope you avoid the draft if that's your aim)

There's no draft to avoid. All he'd do is send a letter to the Selective Service.

You don't have to do anything beyond that.

Look, I don't have time to read all this stuff, but I'll say this about selective service, my two cents I guess.

I turned 18 less than a year ago and signed up on my birthday. I know there is no draft, but my feeling is that if it was ever reinstated, it would be in a national crisis, when the US really needs its citizens. So in that instance I would be proud to be drafted, and as such I am proud to be registered. I do not see it as unethical in the slightest. One of the most basic functions of government is provision for the common defense. As such, there has to be a system in place for that. In America, the scenario in which a draft would be needed is really quite far fetched and extreme, but that also means that whatever it would be would be quite terrible. Like a full-scale invasion or something. In those instances you cannot say that the draft is unethical.

@Thucydides, was the Korean or Vietnam wars national crises? They certainly weren't full-scale invasions.

...and yes, I would proudly serve in a just war or a war of self-defense.

i didnt say the draft *has always been* justified, but just having the ability to draft totally is.

By the way the military is unchristian. if you are a christian who is in the military you are betraying Christ. killing is never justified.

Wasn't Korea agreed on by the UN?

Bullshit, Herr Reichsfuhrer.

Dex, I'll answer your implied question to Thucydides (but do not presume to speak for him of course.)

The the world is very different now compared to 40 years ago. Similar circumstances as what prompted the Korean and Vietnam wars would not provide the same result now. War or military action maybe, but not a draft.

lol how is that SSReichsFuhrer always says the most ironic shit given his name.

One time I think he was like

"I am accepting of homosexuals" or something tolerant like that. I choked on my tangerine.