Thank you, Captain Obvious.

Maybe we could nickname Nostradumass, Nostradumobvioass. <grin> Just kidding!

@Draugnar: Merely being called evangelical now distinguishes Conservative Protestants from Mainline Protestants. You're not going to find many liberal or progressive evangelicals -- they simply have been pushed out. The evangelical movement was founded in the 19th-century based on helping those on the fringes of society: abolition, women's suffrage, universal education, etc. That all ended in the early 20th and now it's closely tied with the Republican party in the United States.

I live in a very conservative area of the country (Saint Augustine, Fl) and there are not many Catholics in my area. Almost all of my non-catholic religiously active friends are evangelical and fit this description in every aspect.

I suggest you read "Thy Kingdom Come" by Randall Balmer when you have some free reading time for a more complete picture on how the evangelical movement began (nothing to do with Abortion) and how it became the Religious Right.

Shorten it up - Nostrobvious.

Hey, I kinda like that. Say it with a generic bad Central European type of accent and it sounds vaguely ominous.

To me religious centrist means someone who is not fanatical and acknowledges the possibility of error in everything. So it means I hope that God exists and pay him respect, largely by trying to live the best I can and by going to church to learn about wise teachings of Jesus and such. Someone who is accepting of others no matter how un-Christian they are.

I thought it was someone who worshiped the middle of things

@Hibiskiss - Then the ELCA is definitely the exception. they are far from the Conservative Protestants (oh, and Greater Cincinnati is VERY conservative) as we are accepting of "alternative" lifestyles as a denomination and support a lot of socialistic programs. We believe the poor and the widows and the orphans all need to be cared for and that it is our responsibility to see to their care. That is where our "effort" comes into play.

The teachings of Jesus are paramount as are going into the world and revealing Him though our deeds.

As far as biblical authority goes, we lean towards the Rogers and McKim view that the bible is THE authority on all things social and spiritual but not necessarily from a historical point of view.

The "personal conversion" is a little less Evangelical within the ELCA than your typical fundamental protestant faith. We baptize in infancy, but have a confirmation at an age of accountability (much like the Catholic faith) in which the individual accepts a personal walk with Christ.

And don't think that I speak only from the Lutheran point of view. I spent several years in a Baptist church and followed my former fiance (who dumped me for a guy the asshole preacher approved of) to a Church of God where I stayed for several years before said dumping occurred. As vindication, I heard he was serving time in jail for embezzeling from the church... Yeah, I'm still bitter about that even though it was over 20 years ago.

Now maybe the ELCA is in such a minority amongst the rest of the Evangelical denominations. I know the Southern Baptists outnumber us significantly, but then they are less a denomination and more of a convention with each individual congregation having near complete autonomy when it comes to the specifics of the Baptist teachings and have plenty of division amongst and within the congregations.

But yes, the Conservative Religious right does hold prominence within the Evangelical denominations if just for the shear size of the Convention of Southern Baptist Churches (the largest protestant group in the US).

@Acosmist, lol.
---
I'm an atheist... most of my friends happen to also be atheists or agnostics (not that I specifically went looking for that... and not like I met them on Sunday in the Atheist Church)... but I have no problem with the many flavors of religious/spiritual folk that use it for themselves but don't push too hard to try and change or judge me or others (I enjoy discussions... just not arm twisting). There are many ways to find peace of mind. The one's that think there is only one way for people to be and those who aren't are either evil or misguided and need to be suppressed or "enlightened"... those are the one's that need to cool their jets and let people live their lives the way they want to. Oh - and Jesus Camp was pretty creepy. There are far too many people in this country (U.S.) that want to turn it into a theocracy/"Christian Nation", for my tastes. What some religious folk forget is that secularism is actually their friend. It is no accident that the founding fathers set up a secular country - even though they were personally religious for the most part.

While congress shall make no law establishing a specific religion or abolishing the free practice thereof, to say the U.S. was founded as a secular state would be a bit misleading. Our fundamental laws generally come from the ten commandments (although not all are turned into laws nor are all laws found there for obvious reasons). Murder, theft, and lying are three biggies that are illegal (lie to a judge and jury and see what it gets you if they can prove you lied). The key is that the founding fathers were of a diverse religious makeup and didn't want the feds imposing a predefined view of what to believe to be forced upon them as the Church of England effectively did to their forefathers. But they never forbade states from setting a religious preference as many states had been founded by a single religious community and had certain laws in place, laws that if overturned would have forced those states to not ratify the constitution.

So, in effect, it was a non-denominational government they setup but not a truly secular one until later.

@Draugnar - agreed that the Constitution did not tell the states to be secular until later with the 14th Ammendment.

To suggest that the founders found inspiration in the Bible is reasonable enough... but they also found inspiration from sources that were not at all Christian... the ancient Greek democracy, for example. To suggest that the fundamental laws actually come from the Ten Commandments is a bit too extreme. Yes, we don't allow murder, theft or lying... but then, what culture does?? These concepts are much bigger than that... you can't simply say that they were invented in the Old Testament. And besides, what about the other seven commandments? I would be hard pressed to find any of those reflected in our laws... with the exception of laws discouraging adultery (grounds for divorce)... again, not an exclusively Judeo/Christian ideal.

Not sure about the distinction between non-denominational and secular... unless you mean Christian non-denominational... which I would disagree with.

More agnostic even than non-denominational. Remember that line about being endowed by "their creator" with certain inalienable rights? That in itself is a religious reference, just not specific to any one religion. A truly secular state would not have used *any* reference to a creator.

My youngest sister attends some sort of Christian camp these days, and though I have no problem with any group meeting up and having fun etc there is a real theme of conversion at these camps
They actively try to find and convert kids, and I dont think people should lure children with fun activities to convert them

"endowed by their creator" is from the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution, of course. It does not hold the force of law (even if it did at the time [which it didn't] the Constitution (ratified 12 years later) was a new start - wiping away the Articles of Confederation. The Constitution has zero references to a creator.

True, but the Declaration of Independence, while not formally part of our current rule of law nor part of the actual framework of our government, is considered to be one of the documents which guided the formation and establishment of the constitution, sort of a preframework if you will and clearly shows the intent of the founders to not preclude God from our government. And as far as the Judeo/Christian ethics go, the Ten Commandments are inscribed on tablets in Moses's hands above the Supreme Court building's entrance. If that doesn't say "our laws were based on those principles found in the laws handed down by Moses", I don't know what does.

I note with interest that the Articles of Confederation had a clause in them that pre-approved Canada as a state should they apply for membership in the U.S. as one. I wonder if we'd still take them :-). Of course they wouldn't want it...

CONVERT CHILDREN THROUGH CANDY >_>

@kesta ^

A representation of the tablets being above the doors of the Supreme Court Building (built in the 1930's, btw) certainly does say that "our laws were based on those principles found in the laws handed down by Moses"... but that doesn't make it true, however. Not any more true than having an Illuminati symbol (the pyramid with the eye) on our dollar bill proves that we are a country based on the Masonic Temple or the ancient Egyptians. Sometimes artistic licenses are taken. And sometimes even the Supreme Court is wrong (see Dred Scott). Though I don't imagine that the Supremes had a part in the architectural design of their building. How about the Greek architecture and columns themselves - so prevalent in court buildings... surely that suggests that we got it all from the Greeks. (not really, but maybe you see my point).

We Christians should get a windowless white van that says "FREE SALVATION" on the side

> We Christians should get a windowless white van that says "FREE SALVATION" on the
> side
Such a thing exists here in Perth, Australia. A man drives his windowless white van around with those sorts of slogans on his car, and a big pair of loudspeakers broadcasting live Christian recruitment messages as he drives. It's perhaps a little ridiculous aspect of a big Christian following here, much more like America than England I think

Wow, uh. Wow. Just wow.

Not gonna lie, that's pretty awesome.

As far as Moses and the commandments being over the Supreme Court entrance - so are Hammurabi, Draco the Lawgiver, Confucious, Solon, and Muhammed.

Nostradumass: IN GOD WE TRUST here: http://www.treehugger.com/20090225-obama-adressing-congress.jpg
or on coins?

"the official description of the sculpture provided by the artists himself, Herman MacNeil:

Law as an element of civilization was normally and naturally derived or inherited in this country from former civilizations. The "Eastern Pediment" of the Supreme Court Building suggests therefore the treatment of such fundamental laws and precepts as are derived from the East. Moses, Confucius and Solon are chosen as representing three great civilizations and form the central group of this Pediment. Flanking this central group - left - is the symbolical figure bearing the means of enforcing the law. On the right a group tempering justice with mercy, allegorically treated. The "Youth" is brought into both these groups to suggest the "Carrying on " of civilization through the knowledge imbued of right and wrong. The next two figures with shields; left - The settlement of disputes between states through enlightened judgment. Right - Maritime and other large functions of the Supreme Court in protection of the United States. The last figures; Left - Study and pondering of judgments; Right - A tribute to the fundamental and supreme character of this Court. Finale - The fable of the Tortoise and the Hare (Descriptions of the Friezes in the Courtroom of the Supreme Court of the United States and of the East and West Pediments of the Building Exterior, p. 9).

In other words, MacNeil says nothing to suggest that the 10 Commandments are "the origin and basis of our legal system." Rather, Moses is put on par with Solon and Confucius as simply an important lawgiver of the East."

Link: http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/arg8c.htm

"In God We Trust" is about as vanilla as it gets... being that all it suggests is monotheism. At the time the capital building was built, atheism and pantheism were both pretty much non-factors. ...just like "all *men* are created equal" and giving the vote to only men, the founders had certain blind spots... oh yeah... and that slavery thing.

So, you make the point for us that for the founding fathers, the government at the time wouldn't have been secular because atheism was a non-issue. Therefore they would have had certain montheistic aspects reflected in their development of the framework. Good job arguing against your own argument. :-)

does secular necessarily include atheism? Seems to me you could easily have a secular society without a single atheist in it. ...and without considering the idea of atheism.

Wikipedia sez: "Secularism is the concept that government or other entities should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs."

And yes... "In God We Trust" is a violation of that... but a pretty darn minor one - especially for the times. As I said - blind spots.

It's separation of church and state... that is all. A secular government does not mean that the people are godless... it simply means that you keep your god out of government and I'll keep my god out of government. ...what people seem to forget, is that this wall also protects churches from government meddling. These are two great tastes that taste simply horrible together. Anchovies and chocolate.