I thought I remember reading that the Turks would sodomize their defeated enemies to humiliate them.

Sodomizing any one is rape

* excuse me,
Sodomizing any one against their will is rape.

Was anyone questioning that?

Here's the West Wing quote
Major Tate: Sir, we're not prejudiced toward homosexuals.
Admiral Percy Fitzwallace: You just don't want to see them serving in the Armed Forces?
Major Tate: No sir, I don't.
Admiral Percy Fitzwallace: 'Cause they impose a threat to unit discipline and cohesion.
Major Tate: Yes, sir.
Admiral Percy Fitzwallace: That's what I think, too. I also think the military wasn't designed to be an instrument of social change.
Major Tate: Yes, sir.
Admiral Percy Fitzwallace: The problem with that is that's what they were saying about me 50 years ago - blacks shouldn't serve with whites. It would disrupt the unit. You know what? It did disrupt the unit. The unit got over it. The unit changed. I'm an admiral in the U.S. Navy and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff... Beat that with a stick.

Thank you Dingle, I was just going off memory.

Have any of you read "All Quiet on the Western Front?" Now of course this is a rhetorical question, and I assume that many of you learned people have of course read this great novel. So... do you not understand that in combat a "band of brothers" mentality is the most important, and can be acheived regardless of any matters of sex. In fact, war probably has the effect of making (for those who aren't traumatized completely) people seem more homosexual in nature than anything else in the world, as one is constantly surrounded by and dependent upon only members of his own sex.

I would still like to know on what level is this paper written.
High school, college or God forbid middle school.
What part of the country are you in?
If you put forth the views presented here you will fail if you are from California.
Some poli Sci teachers have an agenda and hold grudges against certain points of view.
Many of the views presented are true.
What is also true is the majority of our enlisted military comes from lower middle class socioeconomic backgrounds or lower. You are not dealing with people that have a lot of worldly exposure and probably don't watch the news. I know many of the guys I served with had never been out of their home town before boot camp. All of these things play a factor. There is a huge amount of hazing (certainly there was) in our armed forces The scandals you hear about from someone posting their video to you tube for the world to see are in some cases gut wrenching, but not evil. This is my opinion. I still see death on a regular basis and it is rarely pretty. Here you are talking about a bunch of low income kids who have no real life experience and have never had to provide for themselves. Their views of the world are still wonderfully shaded. This is why we recruit them. They are still young, fit, and impressionable. We give them weapons and train them to kill other human beings. They may launch missiles or they may be up close and personal. Any means necessary. Stab the enemy with a knife and watch as the life leaves his eyes. Now lets take that mentality and add ignorance, confusion, and fear. That's what homophobia really is.
I think someone got it right. Don't ask don't tell. If accused deny deny deny. I have participated in things that would have had me kicked out faster than you can blink. Hazing is part of team building. You don't rat out the guy next to you. Your life might actually depend on him. If you are gay you may tell your buddies after you get to know them and have earned their trust. Others you don't. Quite frankly it isn't any of your business what events take place between me and my wife. I don't want to know what happens between same sex couples either. It is my preference and has no bearing what so ever on how well you can put a bullet through another mans skull.

all good points thank you one and all.

some questions and or statements
Armies rely heavily on teamwork to get the work done. if some men do not like this gay guy serving this may make the team work less effective and cause more lives to be lost. Also what if the homosexual brigade was made? the possibility of them becoming attracted to each other are there. this may serve as a means of unity but could it also serve as a distraction to the fighting?

this is a paper for a high school speech class. West side indianapolis. half and half on views mostly

Ahhhhh Midwestern, well you will most likely get more support for the don't ask don't tell, but the typical Midwestern teacher doesn't have the agenda like the Cali ones do.

from what i know about my speech teacher he doesn't really show favoritism. his views from what we can tell are slightly conservative but more moderate.

You idiots, the idea of War is to kill poor people. War is nothing more than rich people sending off the young, poor to a) protect/extend their property/"security" b) decrease the population of poor on the homefront. Rich man's war, poor man's fight. This is elementary middle school stuff, and I don't care how learned you think you are because if you don't comprehend this then I have no reason to discuss this further. IT DOES NOT MATTER.

So if your country was invaded by an aggressor, that means it's the rich man's fight to defend the nation? You're saying that defending your own country is a plot to kill poor people? You're saying that if Russia invaded the USA, the USA would only defend themselves to keep their property & security, and that the goal of keeping an independent sovereign country plays no role in War?

Dumbest thing I've ever read.

@AG - he's a troll. Don't feed him. He'll just keep coming back. That was the most blatant trolling attempt I've seen in a long time.

Gays have been serving in the US military for as long as it has been around, for the most part it has been hidden though.
Will is cause shakeups and make people uncomfortable if it is in the open? For some yes, but this is exactly how it was when the military was integrated racially and when women were mixed in as well. Women still are not allowed in most combat roles but that is partly based on ability with some prejudice mixed in. Very few women are able to accomplish the physical demands of those positions although, I feel if they are able to do the job unassisted it should be allowed.
The only issue I see really is the discrimination in housing. Females are housed separately because of sexual tension. There is no easy fix for this as, if you house homosexuals together separate from hetero, you have the same issues as if you house male and female together. The only equitable solution is that we need to get past these issues and house all, male, female, hetero, homo together. I do not see that happening for a while.
Beyond all of that I have no problems with gays serving openly in the military. If they can do the job, they should be allowed to do the job. Yes some will feel uncomfortable, but that problem is with the intolerant ones, not the gays.

@ dear old Draugnar,
how foolish for you to assume my intent. I am serious about what I say, and I am not motivated by the desire to "troll." If I am "trolling" as you say it is certainly unintentional. In fact, by the act of calling me a "troll" (rather a repugnant title don't you think for someone that holds a non-conformist opinion) I believe that you are being a troll. I actually had an opinion related to the topic whereas you were just attempting to villify me. Kind of ironic don't you think???
Anyway- @ Ag
Since I am not attempting to "troll" as I have just established (not that expect you lemmings to believe me if you follow Draugnar like he's Jesus as we shall discover soon enough), I thought the whole gays in the military thing was a general topic discussed in the context of the current US war in the Middle East. So were you referring to this when you made that last comment? I hope not because that seems a rather flawed argument that by invading another country to instill "democracy" we are being invaded. It just doesn't match up. Your argument is in the paranoid frame of mind of the Cold War. Get over it. There is no domino effect that challenges our so-called perfect way of life. However, if you are correct and there is a threat on US soil (as it is actually occurring) then I would agree with you in part.

@Ottovanass - I can't believe I'm feeding you right now, but this is the only thing I'll say direct to you on this topic. Respond if you like, I will respond in kind. Your first post had NOTHING to do with homosexuals in the military. You presented a very inflammatory class-based comment on war that had nothign to do with homosexuals and the topic at hand. That, by definition, was a troll attempt to hijack the thread. That is what makes you a troll.

* I will *not" respond in kind.

my first post was related to homosexuality and warfare, I don't know what you mean. And at least I gave you an endearing name unlike Ottovanass although that was somewhat humorous

my second comment, however, ok... yes you have a point and I apologize. It was not directly targeted to the topic in that it failed to directly mention homosexuals. I also did start out with an insult, which I understand is not an effective method of communication... However, indirectly I do believe that by claiming that war is a waste of life anyway you might as well allow all people equally the same right to die. It was not received because I did not express it in a very fashionable or intelligent manner, in fact it was the kind of spewing of garbage that I usually despise. So you do have a point about my rashness, but I swear that I have no intentino of "hijacking" this thread. I just got overpassionate about a part of this topic and expressed it in a crude and undesireable fashion. For that I am sorry

intentino=intention

The armed forces are not poor people fighting for the rich. I resent that. I'm not poor, I'm middle class, and I came pretty darn close to joining up after high school these past few months. I'm at University of Texas now and I've met Air Force people training under ROTC programs. They're no different than me. They aren't all "low class." On top of all that I know people my own age that entered the military after high school and they are not stupid, not intolerant, and not poor.

If you feel comfortable taking a trend and making blanket statements from it, go for it, but it will not go unchallenged.

OK, I must have overlooked the first post, ottovanbis. I saw the second and it was what stood out as trolling. In that case, I withdraw the overall troll comment. You admit the second was inflammatory and not exactly on topic. My apologies.

And I served my time in the Corps. My family was upper middle class (dad is a retired engineer, mom was in politics). We were not poor, but they believed I would appreciate my education if I earned it myself, so I went in the Corps before college.

Thank you Draugnar
@Thucydides
I never said poor people were stupid so that sounds like it must have come from your own inferrence. However, of course my statement wasn't true. No blanket statements are true (except for this one). But you must admit that your own personal experience also doesn't adequately reflect the majority of entrants into the armed forces, many of which are poor. And lets not even get into the whole just war argument or the justification of the Gulf War argument because honestly I have school work to do and do not have the surfeit of time required. Congradulations, you caught my semi-sattire (which is of course weaved with truth) (do you really take me for an idiot? come on, man)

I take you as someone who doesn't give respect where it's due. You're not an idiot, just rude.

Of course my personal experience doesn't always represent the majority. That doesn't matter though. I wasn't making any blanket statements. I don't classify the whole of the armed forces in one way or another, they are a diverse group of individuals who joined for all sorts of reasons.

though you did call them stupid...

respect should be earned, and you haven't done anything spectacular to earn mine not that you probably care because I sure as hell don't