Oops, I meant SICARIUS should reread them. Sorry Invictus.

But do you really want Sicarius at your house, knowing he is doesn't believe in homes and educations and showers and refrigeration of food and...

Jadayne, but they weren't 'outsiders'. They were American citizens.

Sicarius-

The British did it In India, The French did it in Algiers and probably Vietnam without turning it on "their own people." The U.S probably did it in the Phillipines I don't know what point you are getting at but whatever it is it is very simplistic. Perhaps you should look into that formal schooling you hate so much.

Sicarius did include the inflammatory "torture" reference as well, but he is running under the assumption that the US is torturing people. Waterboarding is only arguably torture and no other techniques have been brought forth that I've heard about in ANY legitimate medie (foreign or domestic to the US).

oops media, not medie

The French tortured in Algeria, not sure about the English in India but i would suspect that they did. That was just off the top of my head.

There may be a strange if not bizarre reference in history of the last 150 years , though the idea of Sicaris cooking my family diner could qualify as extending the concept of torture further.
There is no doubt in history that the Imperial Japanese tortured prisoners of war and slaughtered millions in China. However, as a bizarre issue, does anyone recall them turning on their own citizens at all in terms of torture on a mass scale? They did not intern their citizens, despite the established cruelty to non-Japanese. They did not have concentration camps for Japanese citizens,
As I said, it is a bizarre example, but I believe it fits within the confines of what was asked.
I also agree that the hysteria over 'turning on ones own;' and the like is a matter of degrees and perception. Being born in 1949 and having gone through the 60's and the anti-Vietnam War era as a demonstrator et al, and having avoided the Chicago Police Riot of the 1968 Democratic Convention, I still would not describe that as a 'turning on oneself', though I am sure that Sicarius and I would disagree on that.
Nevertheless, I digress (as always) and offer up Imperial Japan as a possible case to fit your request.
There may be substantially others depending on the nature of what you mean by Secret Prisons and torture as well as the discussed term of 'turning on your own'.
Another Example might be the British Empire where they employed torture and internment policies in places like South Africa (the Boer Wars) and the relationship with the Irish. Then again it depends on whether you consider the Irish as 'their own'.

Sicarius - then if we shut down our secret prisons and some twelve years from now we find that no legitimate US Citizens were ever held in our camps, will you cook me dinner in my old age?

Sicarius will probably be in a secret prison by then, so its a moot point.

Hes not cooking you anything, I won when I said French in Algeria

And the Japanese was a military state, opposition was crushed and opposing political figures were killed

FRENCH IN ALGERIA

I win

True enough, unless my point bears out.

You'd have to expect an institutional wide disregard for basic principles of justice to expect the US government to go around grabbing people at random and calling them enemy combatants. I don't like the wide ranging powers they've been given, since they can be abused, but they are still limited.

There's no hidden prison system for US citizens. There is a shady one for suspected terrorists captured abroad. I don't agree with that necessarily, but they aren't American gulags. That's absurd.

French Algeria fails the test... in that it was, until 1958, considered an integral part of France (and gained complete independence in 1962)... therefore the people imprisoned and tortured were French. ...the French were imprisoning and torturing their own people - by definition.

Denied!

Oh BS give me a break. It was a colonial posession. The French knew the difference between an Algerian Arab and a pied noir. They were not torturing those of French ancestory in Algeria thats for sure and the Algerian Arabs were not considered french. If you disqualify it because the French pretenses toward annexing Algeria you are grasping at straws.

Arab Algerians were in no way considered "our own people by the french" Im sorry.

so, SantaClausowitz, it's only torturing your own people if the torturers consider the victims to be their own people? That would suggest right away that the Nazi's did not imprison or torture their own people, after all those people who were imprisoned and tortured were not Aryans. Besides, residents of French Algeria were considered to be French nationals (though full citizenship was more restricted - with Muslims excluded for much of the colonial period).

This whole argument is pretty screwy.

under this fine standard, slavery in the U.S. was not a case of imprisoning and torturing our own people... since slaves were not considered by the American government to be citizens until the Civil War. Under the SantaClausowitz standard, barbarism is to be defined by the barbarians. Great.

Yeah, but Sicarius is getting a boner from it

by the way, Invictus, what do you make of the Jose Padilla case? U.S. citizen - imprisoned and tortured for years, denied habeas corpus rights during that time. That was a case where a policy of imprisonment and torture lead to the imprisonment and torture of one of our own people. Granted this was eventually corrected... but it took years and was fought tooth and nail by the administration. Shameful, really.

yes lolzworth


it doesnt matter they were french citizens. I dont care what the mainstream thinks. thats like saying US internment of japenese wasnt a big deal because they werent 'us'. fuck that they were US citizens.

waterboarding is not what I was reffering to, though I would consider that torture.
look at abu ghraib, or how about afghans dying in the salt pit from being chained to the floor and beaten too long?


"You'd have to expect an institutional wide disregard for basic principles of justice to expect the US government to go around grabbing people at random and calling them enemy combatants. "
what about the palmer raids? the red scare? the green scare? I'm really not above thinking that the US isnt capable of anything, or at least criminal elements inside the government.

Maybe you should reread the act friendo, they CAN do it to american citizens.
look at Jose Padilla, the American citizen who was declared an unlawful enemy combatant and then imprisoned for three years before finally being charged with a lesser crime than was originally alleged


imperial japan may technically be what I asked for, but idk about that, I think war crimes are in a different catagory. maybe not but war crimes and illegal prisons are different in my very scholarly eyes =]

I'll repost what I said before.

You'd have to expect an institutional wide disregard for basic principles of justice to expect the US government to go around grabbing people at random and calling them enemy combatants.

Your only example is one guy who was charged with a crime and convicted of supporting terrorism and conspiring to kill people abroad. Sounds like the system works to me.

Scholarly?

Morgan what are you talking about? There is no moral argument here. Muslim Algerians were not considered French by the French nor did Muslim Algerians consider themselves French. My argument revolved around the fact that the Muslim Algerians didnt see themselves as French. French citizenship was given to the French colonizers "the Pied Noir" and Algerian Jews. I seriously have no clue what you are on about.

Under your argument Palestinians are part of the Israeli People. No they arn't and if you went up to a Palestinian and told him he was ,he'd be quite upset. This has nothing to do with Nazi persecution or the Barbarism being defined by the barbarians.

The Algerians were a foreign people living under colonial rule who were imprisoned and tortured in secret prison under military rule, it fulfills the conditions .

Based on the definitions discussed -a secret prison system set up specifically for foreigners -I would like to hear some examples of those which were expanded to incarcerate citizens.

I believe that the confusion may be on the concepts of 'foreign' as well as the nature of the scope of the issue. For example police brutality as it was called back in the day, on a individual or even hundreds of individuals may not rise to the concept of 'turning on one's own citizens' which implies a systemic shift to support and DIRECT abuse.
The Nazi German examples of its attack on its own citizens which they defined as within their ethnic group (thus excluding the German Jews) fits the profile of a society turning on its own. (specifically in this regard would be not only the mentally ill, homosexuals, but also political opponents such as the communist).

regardless of whether the prisons were originally created for foreigners or not.
a prison system outside the rule of law where torture takes place. doesnt matter who it was originally created for.
pinochets prisons were originally created for captured enemy insurgents, then turned it on its own people.

Invictus, my example was not one guy. it was thousands, palmer raids, red scare, green scare, fuck, eugene debbs got 10 years in prison for giving a speech on the constitution.
10 YEARS IN PRISON FOR GIVING A SPEECH ON THE CONSTITUTION!!!!

dont turn this around friend, jose padilla as a person is irrelevant. he could be inncocent as a baby or more ruthless than charles manson. the point is he is a US citizen who had constitutional rights suspended. in 3 years he seen his lawyer 4 times, thasts including at his trial, which by the way took 3 years to get.
so an AMERICAN CITIZEN was denied constitutional rights and held in guantanamo bay for 3 years with no trial.
and when you look into the trial it becomes even more suspect. there was no evidence at all, fuck they convicted him of a crime that they didnt charge him with until the day before the trial.

so you said this system couldnt be used against US citizens (us!) then you were wrong. I'm fairly sure there have been other americans in guantanamo too, I'll have to look into it, (I have a guantanamo prisoner list)
and maybe padilla was an upstanding citizen or maybe he was.. not so great, the point is if they can do it to him, they can do it to you

wake the fuck up and drop your naive illusions about the benevolence of the US government.