I agree, one build can be best, depending on the country. France wants more, Germany wants more, Russia wants more. Everyone else is okay with one, I'd think.

I didn't mean to say that S01 could make or break you, just that 1901 as a whole could. Turns are years to me - I don't know why, that's just how it's always worked in my head. I'll try not to do that here.

Even when taken as a whole year 1901 can't truly make or break you. Sometimes a 3 build start is the worst thing for you, especially if you are Russia or Germany. Other things worth considering are that position is sometimes more valuable than a build and securing an ally early on often pays big dividends in gunboat.

Bump. Hope these discussions have given everyone some food for thought. Remember to tip your professors with plenty of +1s.

Except me. I don't want or give +1s. Unless I miskey on my phone.

Nope, +1 me.

(Just bumping this because the Spring 1901 turn has processed)

My thoughts on opening move by country:
Austria - Strong opening made even stronger by Russia not bouncing Galicia. This opening puts you in position to throw two units at Rumania or Greece. Only question is can you/should you trust Italy.
England - Solid opening for you given The other moves. Russia moving the army to St Pete means you need two units to guarantee Norway, but France's failure to support Paris-Burgundy leaves you as the only power that can attack Belgium. You'll have an interesting decision there.
France - I don't understand the Marseilles Hold move. Your position would be much stringer heading into the Autumn turn if Mar had supported Paris-Burgundy. With Italy moving to Piedmont you can now only guarantee one build.
Germany - Strong opening, you are in good shape. Should get two builds and likely good for you that Italy is in Piedmont and Russia is contesting Scandinavia.
Italy - solid opening. You'll have an interesting decision whether to turn on Austria for a potential build, foster non-aggression with Austria and go all out after France, or go full alliance with Austria and try to work in concert against Turkey.
Russia - splitting your forces can work well if England moves to the channel and Vienna does not attack Galicia. Unfortunately for you neither of those went your way. Now you are facing the prospect of no guaranteed builds. Do not despair though, while no builds are guaranteed for you, England, Germany, and/or Turkey may decide a no build Russia is worse for them than a 1 or 2 build Russia. Anything from -1 to +3 builds still in play for you this turn.
Turkey - solid opening, you'll have to decide whether to pile onto Russia with Austria or try to gain his help against Austria.
In terms of positions I would rank them as G,A,E,I,T,F,R. No position is unsalvageable yet though. Good luck in the Autumn everyone.

SoW Commentary:

A few interesting moves so far. I'm going to offer some (semi-)short insight now and I'll get into more detail and at the end of each year.

England - Your opening was very typical, and relatively neutral. Nobody opened directly against you, but Russia did play an anti-English hand, though it could easily turn anti-German in a heartbeat. You can support yourself into Norway, or, given that neither France nor Germany are in position to block Belgium, take it and chance Norway without support. I'll be interested to see your choice.

France - Had Marseilles supported Paris into Burgundy, you would be in much better shape. I'm not sure if that was a misorder or not, but you're in a bind now. You'll likely end up restricted to one build here, but whichever Iberian center you leave is always there next year too. Not a pretty start but nothing too devastating.

Germany - Your moves leave you a number of options on two fronts. You have an opportunity to try to bounce Russia out of Sweden, and depending on what goes on in the south, you could keep Russia without a build. You could also allow Russia *into* Sweden as opposed to bouncing him and establish what could potentially turn into a long friendship. On the French side, you have even more options, whether to make a move for Belgium in 1902, try to invade France again, or even leave Italy hanging altogether. Your position has the potential to be the best on the map right out of the gate in my opinion.

Russia - The move north is pretty common and doesn't represent an immediate commitment against England despite what many players like to think. It could lead into an assault on Sweden, or it could give you a shot at Norway later on. Either way, the northern opening works well as long as everyone in the south plays along, and if Turkey and Austria reciprocate your early neutrality, you could have Scandinavia all to yourself in a few years. First things first, though, we have to hope you get a build or two.

Turkey - Nothing much of note. Your opening was one of two acceptable Turkish openings in my opinion (I don't like an opening move to Armenia, even though it's pretty common), the other being to pull your fleet out, but since Italy doesn't appear poised to lepanto your opening has you in a good spot. It'll be interesting to see whose friendship you try to earn this fall, though.

Austria - Another typical opening with the potential for good and bad. Russia let you into Galicia, and you can either play neutral back or you can take a shot at Warsaw or Rumania. This is something you might discuss with your TA because that choice could play large for you in this one. The question, as Yaleunc said, is whether you can trust Italy.

Italy - Very good opening. You left yourself all three of your potential targets in the coming years, and in all likelihood you're going to get to choose who you want to chase. France is stuck in Marseilles; leaving it to open it for a build is a huge risk that he probably won't take. Austria will likely not defend Trieste, so you could slip in there too. Turkey didn't pull his fleet out either, so a late pull back to Armenia and a lepanto is also an option. Your position is solid in the very early stages here.

I'll give out some sort of grade or ranking or something after we see who builds what and where. Good luck in the fall phase, and be sure to chat it up with your TAs. Even if it doesn't have to do with your country's position, ask questions, keep them involved, and hopefully this game can not only help you play one country but get a better grasp on the different ways to play the others too.

In my opinion, the only unit that should even consider a hold in S1901 is the army in Venice, and that's still as good as a move in most cases. There is absolutely no excuse for holding A Mar. The consequences of that hold are numerous and made worse by the Italian army sitting in Piedmont. When Russia opens north, it puts England in a very compromised position in terms of his ability to have any say over Belgium. Because you didn't support the move, you've basically given up a free build in one of the most important centers on your side of the board. Not only that, but as others have said, you're now stuck in Marseilles and relegated to a single build. Plus, you're STILL not even guaranteed to take Burgundy. Bad play that cost you a huge 1901.

The other move I will talk about is Italy moving A Ven-Pie. Usually, this move is done with one of two intentions: attacking France or swinging to Tyrolia to sneak attack Austria. Its too early to tell, but the more options you have as Italy, the better. The big danger of moving to Piedmont, of course, is a possible French retaliation, and you lucked out when France bungled the Mar opening. Now you've got the upper hand. With a lucky opening by Austria, you two are looking to be a formidable duo should you choose to work together.

I am newish to Gunboat games so I will probably ask a few questions periodically if you dont mind :

Question - Spring 1901 is always confusing to us Press players without the ability to talk about bounces. Is there a general standard that high end GB players use to determine how to handle the common bounce areas such as BlackSea, Burgundy, Galacia?
I guess I am looking for something like "In general you should always try and bounce" or "Sometimes you can signal your intentions by not bouncing and showing a desire for an alliance and that has much more long term value."

Black Sea - if Russia moves to Rumania instead of bouncing and Turkey takes the Black Sea, it typically means Russia trusts Turkey to stay there peacefully early on. When Russia elects to break things off, he builds a second fleet in Sevastopol and the juggernaut ends. If Turkey moves to Constantinople, Russia typically realizes that Turkey wants to focus on the lepanto and pushes a unit into Rumania. Some players choose to leave the Black Sea, some don't.

Burgundy - if France moves there with support, it's generally not considered a threatening move. It's blue territory, and Belgium is on the French side of the stalemate line between him and Germany. France forcing his way in only ensures that Germany stays on his side, so it shouldn't be seen as an aggressive move. After all, if France takes Munich, Germany still gets it back shortly. If Germany moves there, it's a little bit more aggressive.

Galicia - easily the most tricky of the three. If Austria moves there, Warsaw and Ukraine are threatened, but most Austrian players use it to take Rumania instead of invading. In that case, Rumania/Galicia supported by Austria's other armies stalemates Russia unless he moves through German territory to surround Galicia and force him back out. If Russia moves to Galicia, he immediately threatens Austrian centers and typically in gunboat, if Austria lets him move there, he'll take advantage, put an army in Rumania, and take Austria down pretty quickly. As such, most players bounce it, because there's nothing else more productive to do with that unit and they have a lot at stake. Some players will chance it, though, as our Russian player did in this game, and hope that his usual adversary will take it as a sign of friendship and move forward.

My preferences regarding S01 moves, if anyone wants to know:

Black Sea - bounce as Russia, DMZ as Turkey. Getting a fleet into the Aegean can be 1901 is critical in stopping a lepanto in its tracks.

Burgundy - support myself in as France, DMZ as Germany. Neither are aggressive but as France, if Belgium falls into German hands early, you make yourself incredibly vulnerable by going after anyone but Germany and are severely disadvantaged when you choose to take on Germany. It also gives him the inclination to move first.

Galicia - bounce either way. Friendship between Russia and Austria is great, Rumania is better. Besides, a lasting A/R is incredibly unlikely in gunboat.

Can we get some commentary on when it's appropriate, or not, for a unit to simply hold. It's been briefly discussed between my student and I, but I think it would be valuable for others. Thanks!

HB - Is your question about holding in general or for the Spring 01 set of moves? 2nd already touched on holding in Spring 01. Basically my take on holding is that it should only be done as a last resort. Venice and Munich are the only units I can think of that might truly want to hold on the opening move. And even for those, Munich should either move to Bur (which will almost always fail or at best bounce) or support France into Bur if Germany wants to foster alliance with France. Similarly, if Venice wants to hold, do support hold Trieste instead. It is a free signal to Austria that you are looking to work together. This reminds me that another useful thing to do in gunboat is to check the order log. Since the map does not always show you what units were attempting to do (especially with respect to supports that get cut), checking orders can show you what the other players were at least trying to do.

Shorter answer - Never hold if you can support a friendly unit instead, even if the support is not needed.

More on holding in general. I think one of the big lessons I learned was that every unit should be "doing" something. With all the contributions I think students and readers have a better sense of the order.

A support hold is always preferential. Even if you want to screw with someone by taking something of theirs and support holding another unit, there's no reason a unit should ever be doing absolutely nothing unless it's a defensive unit, in which case it should be on the front of a defensive line somewhere. If there's nothing to support hold, the unit can probably move forward.

If a unit really can't gain much advantage by moving for the immediate turn, I will hold at times in order to better hide my intentions from the rest of the players.

Two builds for Germany and Austria, one for everyone else.
Austria - solid year one, in very good position against Russia, primed for some early growth as long as the Italian unit in Tyrolia does not turn hostile. Interesting build decision coming, do you add two armies or put a Fleet in Trieste?
England - decent opening year. Somewhat committed to Scandinavia at this point, but France has his hands full with Germany so that may work out well for you.
France - the good news is that with all of England's units up North you should likely be able to pick up Spain in year two while still holding off Germany and Italy if you play your cards right. Long term outlook is still a bit bleak given German and Italian positions right now, so you'll need to find a way to change that.
Germany - Solid year one, I rate your position the best at this point. You secured two builds, put yourself in position to control Belgium and Holland, and also set up a potential standoff in Scandinavia that will likely slow England and Russia's growth. Now you just need to watch that everyone doesn't turn on you as the early leader. The Italian unit in Tyrolia is also something you will need to keep an eye on. Is he planning an assault on Austria or an attack on Munich or just there to keep you and Austria out of the space?
Italy - good opening year. With France's slow start you have the potential to mount a strong offensive there if you move West from Tunis. On the good news/bad news front, with no press your move to Tyrolia likely worries both Germany and Austria. Bad news because they might respond by moving against you since they aren't sure what you are up to, good news because it is usually a good thing to have the other players in the dark about your true plans.
Russia - Germany let you into Sweden at least, so you do get a build. You got a little unlucky with the guess against Austria as Rumania could have been yours and suddenly you would be building two units this turn. Your fate will depend a lot on what Turkey and Germany decide to do going forward. Will they work with Austria and England respectively against you or will they work with you against the others. Will Turkey help you into Rumania or go after it for himself? Should be interesting to see how this plays out.
Turkey - decent year one. You will be helped immensely if Italy turns on Austria and should be in a good spot at least as long as Italy focuses his attention West. Build decision will be key for you here as the unit placement potentially limits your options (Fleet in Smyrna not very useful against Russia, Fleet in Ankara not very useful against anyone else for a while). If you build an Army then your options are still open in terms of who to pursue, but you cede control of the Southern seas to Austria and Italy.

F 1901

A few questionable moves but nothing out of the ordinary. This upcoming build phase is where the fun really starts and countries start to declare their intentions, so be sure to read the board carefully before the spring turn.

England - Good job getting yourself the guaranteed build. A greedy England who goes after Belgium and Norway often finds himself split and unable to defend either center. Now you've got a solid foothold in Scandinavia. However, with Germany letting Russia into Sweden, you've got the potential for a difficult road ahead.

France - One build is never ideal for France, and to boot you're looking at two possible threats in Germany and Italy. Taking Burgundy was nice, but now the question becomes what do you do with it? With Marseilles essentially locked down, you're pretty much forced to take Spain with your fleet, leaving you vulnerable to attack in the north while pretty much guaranteeing a fight with Italy. You've got an unenviable position right now and you'll need a little gunboat magic.

Germany - Ignoring the urge to re-bounce France was smart and now you've got yourself set up nicely to take Belgium, plus two builds and a likely ally in Russia. An Italian army in the Tyrol is a minor worry at this point. You've got a clear direction going forward and things are looking up.

Italy - Your moves are a bit confusing and probably not ideal for Italy to be potentially instigating a fight with three different countries. I don't really understand the move to Tyrolia unless you intend to attack Austria, but then why not simply move Pie-Tyr? You've got a choice coming up about what direction to head, so give it plenty of thought.

Russia - Getting Sweden must be a huge relief after the mess in the south, but that build will change things considerably with the Austria situation. The situation in the north will be similarly tricky and now you have to navigate an alliance with Germany against England where you're not coming from a position of power. With the Italian move to Tyrolia threatening Austria, Turkey may also see this as an opportunity to grab Rumania and forgo the regular Juggernaut gunboat opening, especially if your move to take Rumania with a fleet is read as a threat.

Austria - A very good opening year. Having and keeping Galicia gives you the jump on Russia and Turkey. However, that Italian army in Tyrolia should be worrysome and the Italian build will give you a good idea of what you need to do this upcoming year. The Russian build is the only downside to an otherwise excellent opening year. However, you could use an ally going forward, and if Italy elects to attack France, you may have your hands full if Turkey and Russia join forces.

Turkey - Looking at the board last turn, I presumed that A Bul had two possible moves: support A Ukr - Rum or attempt the bounce in Gre. Cutting support was a third option I didn't consider, and you're probably lucky that Russia decided to move Sev-Rum, although whether he intended to build a second fleet in Sev is anyone's guess. You're now faced with a potentially very strong Austria who will take Rumania this upcoming spring with his build in Budapest. How you respond will be very important for your long term success.

1901 Fall:

Interesting phase. Still three neutrals for the taking too. Two of those could sway the game.

England - You've done everything in your power so far to put yourself in the best spot possible. You and your TA made the right choice, obviously, to support yourself into Norway. Trying to advance your units in the fall of 1901 is usually not worth the risk, because, as you can see, the place you'd be advancing to is still going to be open next year anyway, and you wouldn't be able to defend Belgium in the long run. I'll be interested to see if, given France's temporarily weakened state, meaning you don't have to immediately worry about a sea lion, you can focus on quickly getting past the 6/7 center mark, which is typically England's limit without a few breaks going your way. Hopefully Germany helps you open up the north.

France - My oh my has this year turned out badly for you. Italy has you at their mercy - you can't build in Marseilles to fight them, and you can't really use that army against Germany. You're in Burgundy, but I don't see that lasting. That hold on Marseilles could come back to bite you in a big way unless someone from the east elects to preoccupy Germany for you.

Germany - I like where you're at, and I like that you could get into Burgundy next year. You showed great patience and understanding by going to Ruhr this phase. Still, I don't like letting Russia into Sweden. England certainly isn't going to thank you for that, and considering that he has an army in Scandinavia now and you don't, that could hurt. Still, a friend in Russia is very valuable at this stage, but I don't think Russia would have threatened you anyway if you'd kept him without a build, so I'm a little confused at why you miffed England like that. If I were playing England, I wouldn't take it personally, but that was a risk. Great year overall, probably #1 on the board.

Russia - Germany offered out a friendly hand to you, which in itself makes 1901 a moderate success for you. Hopefully he continues to play nice because you can focus on the other nations that you're already at war with - Austria and England. Regarding Rumania, you did what you could, but Turkey didn't support you in. This is curious, and I don't know if that's just a mental lapse on his part or him taking a shot at Rumania himself in 1902. We won't know until next fall what his intentions are, but keep an eye out. Regarding Norway, I don't think that bounce was worth the risk. You were a bit fortunate to get a build, but you usually would have had Turkish support to Rumania, which would have given you the center anyway. A move to Finland and a build in St. Petersburg would have given you a shot at fighting for Scandinavia, but now I think your best move is to remove yourself from it as a whole and try to establish peace with England so that maybe he leaves St. Petersburg alone and goes south. Regardless, given the immediate spat in the north, you're in about as good a position as you could be.

Turkey - I think you erred in letting Austria bounce Russia out of Rumania. It could have been an attempt at friendship with Austria, but it clearly didn't have that effect - you attacked Serbia. I don't know what the mentality behind those orders were, but I wouldn't try that anymore. You have no need to be that aggressive this early. Austria will now take Rumania unless you use both the Black Sea and Bulgaria to support him in, and even then, it may fail. On the other hand, you got the Black Sea, you can build in Smyrna, and you can be comfortable knowing that Italy is probably not going to lepanto next year, so I'd say you're in a decent spot but it could change quickly.

Austria - You're pretty good right now. Italy opened up Venice for a potential army build, which you now have to watch. If he goes for Trieste, it'll be tough to keep him out. You had a shot at Rumania, which is one of Austria's biggest targets, and though didn't get it, but it's not like anyone expected you to anyway. At this point, you're either going to get attacked by every immediate neighbor you have or you're going to have such an advanced position against Russia that you'll be nearly unstoppable. You put in great moves though and put yourself in a great spot independent of what others did, but now you just have to wonder if Italy is going to let it pay off or not. That's the beauty of gunboat. Sometimes the only thing you can say is "we'll see."

Italy - Absolutely love it. It's fresh and original, with the potential to look east without having to worry about France. France is not going to be a threat to you next year, and you can keep on tapping Marseilles for as long as you want. Unless he gets creative, he won't be able to build there. I don't see why Germany would worry about Tyrolia since he's likely building in Munich anyway. You've got the option to turn west, and you could also potentially have German support on that front soon. You opened up Venice for a potential army build, and given how Austria opened, he'd have trouble defending an attack, as would France if you go with a fleet. Turkey will still probably build in Smyrna but I wouldn't be too spooked by that because he's already demonstrated that Austria is his first target. It's rare to see a player with as many attack options as you have and no one threatening you back. Pick as many fights as you want if you can handle them all I say.

In terms of who I like at this point, Italy and Germany are in a great position not only to dominate their respective regions but also to ally with each other. Turkey is always a threat until being knocked below three centers, and right now you have a reasonable defense against everyone but Italy, who doesn't appear to be attacking. England, you did everything right, but you have to continue to do everything right every time to end up on top. France, you didn't start off well but if you catch a break in the spring, you'll be in a better spot. Austria, you seem to be set in playing go-big-or-go-home (my favorite style), but things haven't quite gone your way so far. And Russia, oh Russia… you'll need a seriously friendly German to be anything more than a 3/4-center lurker by 1903. I'm not betting against you yet though.

Very curious to see what builds bring us.

How much value is there being a passive hindrance? How fine is the line between passively hindering someone and being hostile?

I will use Italy as an example. His moves to Piedmont and Tyrolia seem passive aggressive. They are not necesarily openly hostile but definately hinder 3 countries. In a Press game everyone knows (or thinks they know) if a move is hostile or not but in GB it seems alot easier to be a pain in the ass without being openly hostile.

I wouldn't classify Italian unit in Piedmont as passive hindrance. Tyrolia maybe since it has multiple potential targets, but Piedmont is a direct threat only on Marseilles. That said, being a passive hindrance can have benefit in terms of slowing the growth of your neighbors without actually attacking them if they are concerned enough about the nearby units to hold back some defensive units of their own. But the flip side is that passive hindrance can often be taken as hostility and end up provoking conflict since there is no press to explain why Italy is in Tyrolia in the current game for example. To put it another way, passive hindrance can often backfire and get you involved in an additional front you didn't really want.

Bump.

Thanks profs, my student and I are loving all the great insights. I have some questions to ask the profs:
1) Could you expand a bit more on the choice of England to convoy to Nwy versus the possible choice to convoy to Bel uncontestedly?

2) 2WL says the Russian move to Rum could be read as a threat, while Bo says that it's unexpected that T did not support that move. With A threatening War, could you expand on why this move could be considered threatening or not?

3) The Italian move Ven-Trl is threatening to Austria, but not a decisive stab as Ven-Tri or Pie-Trl (or both) may have been. At the same time, Italy still has all options open and closed no doors. Could the profs expand on a bit on when you should reveal your intent, and how to do so? When to obfuscate your intent, when to be decisive?

Thanks!

1. In the one hand there is something to be said for consolidating your forces and not having to split them across two fronts. In the other hand, with Russia having two units in Scandinavia and France opening weakly I would probably have gone for Belgium since the move was guaranteed. And while holding Belgium in year two vs Germany might have been tough, there is always the retreat to Picardy and attack Brest the next turn option. With the supported move to Norway England is somewhat committed to the all-out assault on Scandinavia and I'm not sure how well that will go.
2. Moving the fleet to Rumania is potentially hostile to Turkey since it opens Sev for a second fleet build. The expected support is of the Army in Ukraine to Rumania since generally Turkey prefers the Russian fleet stay in Sev and an army in Rumania can support Turkey into Serbia.
3. My take on this one is that if Italy plans to attack Austria in year two then Ven-Tri was the move as it was very unlikely that Austria would defend it. With Austria in Galicia he would have had a tough time dislodging Trieste once Italy took it and two builds allows for an army in Venice plus a fleet to use against France or move east. If Italy does not plan to attack Austria in year two, then I don't see much value in being in Tyrolia either as Munich probably won't be there for the taking and certainly not for holding.

Much like save and ready, the I and O are too close on my phone. ON the other hand is what I was trying to type. In both spots.

"2) 2WL says the Russian move to Rum could be read as a threat, while Bo says that it's unexpected that T did not support that move. With A threatening War, could you expand on why this move could be considered threatening or not?"

I think Russia moving F Sev-Rum was a rookie mistake. Likewise, Turkey not supporting Russia to Rum was a rookie mistake, assuming Turkey wants to work with Russia. I understand the need to cover Warsaw, but if R/T really want to work together, then A Ukr-Rum should be the assumed move with the coordinated support. Turkey's second choice should have been A Bul-Gre, assuming Russia would move at least one unit to Rum, to try and bounce F Alb and head off a possible Lepanto.

I actually think the Turkish move of Bul->Ser was fine and functionally no worse than a support of Ukr-Rum. If Russia does Ukr-Rum he can support the move himself from Sev anyway. As it turns out, Austria used Serbia to support Alb-Gre, so Turkey couldn't have stopped that anyway and Russia would have taken Rum from Ukr with support from Sev even without Turkish support or attack on Serbia.

Hm, I could explain the reasoning behind the Turkish move and also explain why it was a good one. But as I was reminded in the old thread the TAs are not to explain here...
Also, funny shit that at least one prof did "not consider" the move nor seems to understand the underlying logic.