descartes

Obviously I prefer Descartes, but gotta go Jesus...

Half because I genuinely think he had the bigger impact, and half because Jesus vs. Buddha would be an amazing showdown to close out this category.

I'd rather talk to Descartes, than Jesus... but... I vote Jesus

Descartes

jesus

Let's hear some arguments please?

On one side we have Jesus. Possibly the biggest moral teacher of all time, certainly the largest in the West. The center (if not founder for those of you who disagree) of the largest religion in the world, ever.

Jesus just stole a few other people's arguments, got killed in a relatively common way, and had a few people make him into a notable figure after his death.

Descartes had some of the most original groundbreaking thoughts of all time, even if they don't seem that way now. He was a genius crossfield etc.

Martin Luther King "stole" Gandhi's arguments and strategies, and was killed in a pretty common way...

Would you hold that against him when measuring his impact, too?

Original or unoriginal, Jesus has had the bigger impact, no question. Descartes' attempts in the Meditations to prove a just God existed might not ever have happened had not Jesus did what he did to make what would become Christianity the dominant religion in the West for 2,000 years.

Then there's all the negative that came with Jesus--2,000 years of bad luck for the Jews, the concept of a hell and punishment after death (which isn't really delved into all that much in the Old Testament, that's far more a New Testament/Christian ideal), and you can pretty much just fill in the blanks from whatever Pat Robertson or his like have said or complained about lately.

By contrast, Descartes is the father of modern philosophy...but ask yourself--

How many people does philosophy really reach? (And remember, *I'm* the guy who back in the day posted "Philosophy Weekly" threads, and I'm saying this.) ;)

With the possible exception of Marxism and a couple others, philosophies in the West have almost always been more of a upper-middle to upper class endeavor...ask the inner city kids of the LA Unified School District (notorious for being both one of the largest and worst school districts in the country) and see how much the kids in it and those educated by it know or care about Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, Kant, Nietzsche, Heidegger, and what have you.

THEN ask them about Jesus, and see what kind of responses you get.

Like it or not, for good or otherwise, Jesus just has the bigger impact, even today.

Which raises the key question of the tournament, is "greatness" the same as impact?

I have voted "yes" so far on impact, so I would argue Jesus. I voted for Hitler for having a hugely negative impact, I will vote for Jesus for having a hugely positive impact.

I don't rate MLK. Borderline Uncle Tom.

Jesus did nothing to make things influential, paul etc. did much more.

Who you are doesn't matter, although, if i were to comment on you, I wouldn't describe you as a real philosopher...

Keep your white view of philosophy to yourself. Talk to leading african-american philosophers of race and they will disagree with you sooo much.

And appeal to masses = nothing of note.

And greatness =/= impact. smh.

I wouldn't dare to judge whether Jesus impact was positive and negative (his impact led to distruction akin to ISIS's destruction of ancient artifacts, but on a much larger scale, eg.).

If we were to consider impact: The way most people lived during the first half of the first century was closer to the way they lived during the first half of the 16th century than the latter is to the way they do live now.* Descartes' ideas were crucial to achieve this success. Jesus ideas haven't changed much for 1500 years. For me the vote is pretty simple:

Descartes, for everything Cartesian.


*could be measured by the HDI or the amount of death sentences carried out, etc.

So many smart people believe so much nonsense.

Also, Jesus' greatness is based on what some of us would consider to be a flawed premise (that he was The Messiah, Son of God, or even a prophet). If you reject the fundamental aspect of his religious impact, I'm not sure how you can consider him 'great'. So hence my vote.

In the the spirit of fairness, if Jesus wins this (as I expect), I won't be voting in the great 'Legendary-Religious-People-off'

Descartes.

Certainly if you value any of his moral teachings he has had an impact. And for those who say he just copied, at least he did it very well. Is there a single moral teacher who has had wider influence?

Socrates I would say. JS Mill too, even if people would probably disagree with that.

I would put some question marks to the premise that it was Jesus' moral teachings in the first place. He was made an icon after his death, teaching attributed to him which may or may not have been his.

In that vein, arguably Moses was a bigger influence, yet if we're voting 'Greatest People', I would also not vote for Moses.

Not to cast a vote, but Descartes was the father of modern philosophy. Which, I think, is why he's getting so many votes.

Descartes

Descartes.

Jesus: 8
Descartes: 11

^ The culture clash within western civilisation in a nutshell.
:-)

As far as I know, Jesus was a Middle Eastern guy – hence this is just the regular West against the Rest clash ;)

Jesus

Also, are y'all fucking kidding me? Descartes is comparatively a nobody

only to those who are ignorant (and have never made it to fourth grade in elementary school – at least that's where I've heard first about him)

People just want a chance to be shocking and minimize Jesus to make sure they appall any Christians on this site. There really is no possible argument that legitimates a Descartes vote.

Maher, not just the Christians. He's a major figure in more than just Christianity.